The Sword is Coming

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

For those who might be interested, Diaste and I  and others had this same debate/"examination" in The Prophecy Exchange club, under the heading The Seventieth Seven. Beginning on page 3. (I took Justin's side.)

There is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has any specific End Times wording. Neither is there any other biblical passage that even mentions a 7-year period in the End Times. Those who say that Daniel 9:24-27 concerns the End Times are reading their own conclusions into the text.

Well, how is the time period called "the beginning of sorrows" explained? Can't say its 2000 years long, no explicit text for that. 

How is it that "the beginning of sorrows" is associated with the A of D if not a period directly before?

Why would Jesus say, "but the end is not yet" if "the beginning of sorrows" was not closely associated with the A of D and the GT?

Why would Jesus say, "the generation that sees all these things" if a single generation wasn't able to see them all, i.e., beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT,  the sign, the coming of Jesus, and the gathering? 

In other words, only a single generation could see them all. So then the beginning of sorrows is a significant time period, closely associated in time with the A of D, GT, and the gathering hence, it's an end time period of certain duration, much less than 2000 years, occurring before the final 42 months. Likely the prophesied 42 months of the two witnesses, during construction of the Third Temple, before the A of D.

The apostles asked the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" 

Peter and John relate us it's the last days and apparently has been since Pentecost. But the apostles asked about the signs of the end of the age, which I would think is the ending of the age of the "Last Days". In other words the disciples wanted to know what would occur at the last of the last days.

And our Lord told them. And us.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD would not have been one of the things that would have to occur at the end of the age. Jesus spoke to this before the questions, "What will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?" were asked, and Jesus did not include the destruction of the Temple in His answer, so that's a separate prophecy that would occur in the last days, it did, and not at the end of the last days.

Further, Jesus told us to look to the prophet Daniel for the reality of the A of D. Since Jesus was detailing the end of the age surrounding the 'generation that sees all these things' then the exhortation to look to Daniel the prophet for the truth of the A of D, and the permission to understand, relates to the A of D that will occur during the end of the age, just prior to Jesus return.

In that case then there is a 7 year period yet to be fulfilled, "...he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...". A 7 year period which fits neatly with the answer Jesus gave in the three Gospels:

Beginning of Sorrows.   1st half, 3.5 years.

A of D                             Midpoint

Great Tribulation          In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Jesus Appears                In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?)

Gathering                      In the last 1/2, 3 years. (?) 

Wrath                            Balance of the last 1/2.

And what about Daniel saying, "... in the middle..."? If there is a middle there has to be a before and an after. If there is no 'before' then the middle becomes the beginning and he prophecy would not be fulfilled as spoken. If we are to look to Daniel as Jesus commanded, for the understanding of the A of D then all the associated facts are relevant. There is a first half, middle, second half of the end of the age, "for one week", as it is written.

What of the two witnesses? Does it make sense their 42 month ministry would be after the A of D, concurrent with the reign of the beast? No, it does not.

If the two witnesses ministry is concurrent with the 42 month time of power for Satan and the beast then the two witnesses would be competing with the beast. Maybe. But doubtful as God gave power to the beast over the WHOLE earth. 

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses would endure the stretch of several months of God's wrath. God does not subject His people to His wrath, so this cannot be.

If the two witnesses ministry is in the second half then the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem by the beast and the world has a three day party at the same time the beast is wrapped in chains and thrown in the pit. This means the beast could not kill the two witnesses as prophesied. Further, is the world really going to have a three day party after God's wrath?  Meaning the beast would have to kill the two witnesses at the moment of his defeat when his 42 months end, and the world will hold the big party for three days after the end of God's wrath while the dead bodies of the witnesses lay in the street for three days; then reanimated and ascend, then the world is scared, and their enemies behold this,  all after the fierceness of God's wrath is completed. 

That just doesn't seem too likely. 

More likely is that the two witnesses ministry is in a 42 month period before the beast is given power. Which means there is a 7 year period at the end of the age with two halves both of 42 months duration.

The evidence is overwhelming.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Diaste

[WilliamL]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, Diaste said:

On 8/28/2018 at 10:15 AM, WilliamL said:

There is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has any specific End Times wording. Neither is there any other biblical passage that even mentions a 7-year period in the End Times. Those who say that Daniel 9:24-27 concerns the End Times are reading their own conclusions into the text.

Well, how is the time period called "the beginning of sorrows" explained? Can't say its 2000 years long, no explicit text for that. 

How is it that "the beginning of sorrows" is associated with the A of D if not a period directly before?

Why would Jesus say, "but the end is not yet" if "the beginning of sorrows" was not closely associated with the A of D and the GT?

Why would Jesus say, "the generation that sees all these things" if a single generation wasn't able to see them all, i.e., beginning of sorrows, A of D, GT,  the sign, the coming of Jesus, and the gathering? 

In other words, only a single generation could see them all. So then the beginning of sorrows is a significant time period, closely associated in time with the A of D, GT, and the gathering hence, it's an end time period of certain duration, much less than 2000 years, occurring before the final 42 months.

That last little phrase is totally unsupported by anything you previously say. Which proves my point: you are projecting your views into the text.

On 8/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, Diaste said:

Likely the prophesied 42 months of the two witnesses, during construction of the Third Temple, before the A of D.

"Likely?" There are all kinds of so-called "likelies" on this forum.

On 8/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, Diaste said:

What of the two witnesses? Does it make sense their 42 month ministry would be after the A of D, concurrent with the reign of the beast? No, it does not.

"Does it make sense?" Is this kind of thinking sound biblical exegesis?

Your entire post is full of speculations, without a lick of sound exegesis which supports, via a minimum of two scriptural witnesses, that

1) there is any clear 7-year period prophesied for the End Times, and

2) that Daniel 9:26-27 must be fulfilled in the End Times.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

That last little phrase is totally unsupported by anything you previously say. Which proves my point: you are projecting your views into the text.

No, well yes, it is supported before. It's a thesis, the greater support comes after the thesis. It's true it is also very close to the conclusion; and well supported with scripture and sound reasoning. 

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

"Likely?" There are all kinds of so-called "likelies" on this forum

I dont care about other likelies, I only care about this one, arrived at through deduction and a great deal of faithful adherence to scriptures. 

But that's fine. Ignore the cornucopia of evidence I related, from scripture. Its probably a bit overwhelming anyway.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Does it make sense?" Is this kind of thinking sound biblical exegesis?

Answer the question instead of disparaging or your response is weak and ineffective. Notice I went on to explain how it did not make sense, through scripture, using the great gift God gave me, common sense.

But if you just want to pick cherries and feel like you did something great, who am I to judge?

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

1) there is any clear 7-year period prophesied for the End Times, and

2) that Daniel 9:26-27 must be fulfilled in the End Times.

Answered them both. You just dont like it, dont like the answer, how it's deduced, or how it proves that which you do not agree with. You went about gleaning any phrase which you could use to inflict damage and ignored the truth. And I can tell you're offended by what I said. Know how? Disdain drips from every word.

I find this exchange intellectually dishonest on your part and continuing is of no further use.

Good day.

[WilliamL]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, Diaste said:

Further, Jesus told us to look to the prophet Daniel for the reality of the A of D. Since Jesus was detailing the end of the age surrounding the 'generation that sees all these things' then the exhortation to look to Daniel the prophet for the truth of the A of D, and the permission to understand, relates to the A of D that will occur during the end of the age, just prior to Jesus return.

In that case then there is a 7 year period yet to be fulfilled, "...he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...". [Dan. 9:26] A 7 year period which fits neatly with the answer Jesus gave in the three Gospels:

Second paragraph has the fallacy slipped in. The Hebrew text of Daniel 9:24-27 does not use the term "abomination of desolation." Rather, it is found in Daniel 12:11, as I pointed out to you in The Prophecy Exchange club, under the heading The Seventieth Seven.

Daniel 12:11 makes no mention about any 7-year period in the Time of the End. Daniel 9:24-27 makes no mention about the Time of the End.

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I find this exchange intellectually dishonest on your part and continuing is of no further use. 

Ditto.