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creativemechanic

Christians and drinking

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Nothing more heart conforming than a man in the desert vowing not to drink again 1695917075_exmecoonlean245small.jpg.57f62fec77739b3585691edc55ba9680.jpg
                                                                                                                                     :101:   please describe the exit for me....

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Just another thought...

1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Taken in context, I believe in our modern day vernacular we would say something like, "if you have an upset stomach, take a couple of Tums." In many places there was pollution / water quality issues causing illness and disease's, much like third world nations today and nations that have polluted their lakes and rivers. Wine today is still recognized as having medicinal and health benefits in moderation. 

A 100% natural home remedy; that doesn't come with a disclaimer narrator speaking faster than an auctioneer for two minutes, telling you it has caused dozens of side health problems from death to the bends. 

It just occurred to me as I was typing this... I'm up there in age and most of the people I know are senor citizens. I can't think of one person that doesn't take a pill / medication for one thing or another. I'm by no means saying that's always a bad thing, just interesting and reflects the modern technological advancement age in which we live. 

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Posted (edited)
 
Hello,
Hope you are having a good day.
 
Fidei wrote:  "I did not assert Jesus is a sinner.  I simply provided proof that he drank wine..."
 
You referenced Matt. 11:9 to prove that Jesus drank alcohol.  Matthew 11:9 is an accusation by the pharisees that Jesus was a winebibber (social drinker), glutton and participant with sinners. If this passage proves anything it proves the Pharisees *lied* about Jesus.  How can you use such a passage to prove Jesus did drink alcohol?  It proves the Pharisees accused him of sin, not that He did any of these things...
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Fidei wrote:  "Wine was common drink in that age and has medicinal properties and sanitizes. "
 
I have already pointed out the sanitizing properties/uses of alcohol (1 Tim. 5:23).  Paul authorized an abstainer to add "a little" alcohol to purify water / address genuine illness.  Not casual drinking. Not social drinking.  Not any quantity that would result in intoxication or the justification of drinking alcohol beyond "a little" for such a medical purpose.
 
This is not equivalent to modern day wine consumption in purpose or in quantity.
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Fidei wrote:  Jesus was a Nazarene not a Nazarite.
 
I did not say he was a Nazarite.  Please note what I did say and did not say.  I explained why His *accusers* may have said what they said.  And a Nazarite vow would not create a sect anyway, since it was revealed by God.  It would take the addition of other, human traditions, to create a sect by that or some other name.
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Fidei adds:  "Jesus we not for any sect of Judaism, He confronted them all because all of them had fallen short of God and were of the letter of the law not the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:4-6). The Jews had turned the Law of Moses and keeping it into god, instead of marriage vows and how to have respectful relationship with God, they did this at first in Exodus 20. They chose not to connect with God, and then many (nlt all) did the same again when God cams close to them in the flesh as Jesus Christ."
 
While I agree that Jesus did not promote any sect / denomination of Judaism, I find the application of "the letter of the law" vs "the spirit" to be inaccurate.
 
"The letter" vs "the spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:4-6 is referencing the Old Law in contrast to the New Law.  The Old Law was revealed by God and written on tablets of stone... with letters.  The New was revealed by God & written on the heart (faith).  It is a contrast of the two covenants, identifying them by the manner of revelation & the manner of reception.
 
Any sect of the Jews would be a deviation from the Old Law.  The Jews did not turn letter keeping into god.  They were supposed to keep "the letter" but deviated into their own denominational creations.  They created their own traditions and rejected the way God revealed:
 
Mark 7:8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. 9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition.
 
Jesus did not condemn keeping the letter.  He commanded it to be kept, until he fulfilled it's requirements with His death.
 
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
The Pharisees (a sect of Judaism) did not keep the law that God revealed. Jesus condemned their disobedience.  Jesus said we must do better than hypocritical lip service (Matt. 15:9).  We must obey from the heart (Rom. 6:16-18), that is by faith.
 
Again, the Jews did not deify law keeping. God actually wants, from the heart, obedience.  Their error was to replace God's law with their own traditions.
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Fidei wrote:  "As for cutting loose at feats. If Hod ordains it is it sin? Is God not good? (). Are you like Job questioning Him? God let the Israelites drink and bench eddy at the feasts celebrating what God has done for them. Celebration and the wedding feast is different from a man going to pub and getting drunk all day: just as having sex with your wife in the covering of matrimony is different than going out and fornicating. After all Jesus is our husband and Bridegroom (Revelation 19:7-9, Mark 2:18-20, Hosea 2:16). "
 
 
 
There are several issues with what you assert here.  First, the assumption that God allowed it has not been sustained by your points.  Second, even if God allowed it under the Old Law, that doesn't necessarily mean God wanted it.  Matt. 19 shows that some things God allowed men to do under the Old Law where against His purposes.  Why allow it then?  For the hardness of their hearts.  He let men have enough rope to hang themselves.  He let men see that their own way was foolish & destructive.  Like their demand for a fallible, human king.  He gave them a king in His anger & took the king away in His wrath (Hos. 13:11).  The point remains, even IF intoxication was allowed under the Old Law (which I deny), that would not prove it was allowed under the New.  The New Law commands sobriety, being "free from the influence of intoxicants" (1 Pet. 4:7).  That means abstinence.
 
Just for argument, say God allowed them to get drunk at feasts... this would mean: (A) The Passover, designed to remember with austerity their deliverance from Egypt, allowed for behavior opposed to austerity & remembrance... (B) The atonement, designed as an occasion to draw near to God and offer sacrifices for sin and not controlling themselves properly, allowed for behavior that promotes a loss of self-control...
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Fidei wrote: "I am arguing that you can abstain or enjoy wine (not to excess). I do not make rules for God’s People. I speak as Paul did:" (You quote Romans 14:1-23.)
 
It must first be proven that something is permissible (in "the faith", Romans 14:1), allowed by God, before it can placed in Romans 14.  So, respectfully, applying Romans 14 to something that God forbids is not speaking as Paul speaks.

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I appreciate the time you have taken to discuss this.  I think I will take a break from this topic for a little while and read some others.  Sometimes it helps to step back and give ourselves time to digest things & ruminate.

Have a great day.  : )

Edited by DWH2003

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On 6/27/2018 at 8:24 PM, creativemechanic said:

maybe it's my denominational values but i never got.  why do some of us get defensive over  thr ability to do this activity?yeah drinking itself  isn't prohibited just  excess but thinking abt it, there's  no possible benefits only all negative  ( unless dr prescribed )

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Well let's just think about this for a moment. I'll use my former drinking days and benefits as an example!

[1] I felt sorry for people who didn't drink in excess. When they get up in the morning, that's the best they are going to feel all day.

[2] When I got up in the morning and opened my wallet to give the kids lunch money, I realized what a good time I must have had the night before.

[3] I didn't realize I liked snakes and farming. I always had 'cotton mouth' and was spitting cotton.

[4] I've always been up for a challenge. In preparation for work shaving in the morning with trembling hands, I was always successful in not slitting my throat.

[5] Being blitzed amplified my communications and made me an expert in things without alcohol I knew nothing about.

[6] It was great for the economy, Anhauser Busch's stock sky rocketed.

[7] It gave the wife and I something in common to argue about. 

[8] It heightens your senses on what's going on around you. We now know the globe spins about on its axis, and your heightened sense of that motion is displayed by staggering and wobbling (physics).

[9] Probably best of all is privately talking about automobiles to your commode RALPH about BUICK'S. And the mouth wash that mysteriously disappeared the next morning?

Yeah, those were the days alright... I thank the Lord for His intervention, love, Grace and compassion for this lowly sinner.

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I drove the “ porcelain bus” many times, crying out for my old buddy “ Buick O’Rourke”. What I really miss is the warm smiles from my insurance man as I paid exorbitant monthly fees due to 3 DWI’s.....ahhhhhh......those were the good old days..........NOT!

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I may have one drink, once in a 'blue-moon', but I honestly believe that I could live my whole life without having a single drink!  I also have had many bad experiences with alcoholics, so would rather stay away from them!  I think it's okay if people have 1 or 2 drinks (on occasion), but how many people do you know, that can stop at that?  And what about those who can stop at 1 or 2, but then when life throws them hardships, tragedy, trials and tribulations their way...won't this be the first thing they'll grab for? which will then lead to what???  Alcohol can ruin your life as well as the one's closest to you - your family!  It would be best to stay away from it altogether.  Anything you are addicted to...you should break away from it!  Otherwise, will you not be tempted to take the "mark of the beast" to satisfy your lusts and desires?  Just my thoughts on the matter...

 New Living Translation
Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit

1 Peter 4:3

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do - living in debauchery, lust, drunkeness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise

 

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Only for formal celebration where the host provide such as wedding will be OK.

Edited by R. Hartono

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