Identifying the man of sin and the beast

[Diaste]

On 7/6/2018 at 1:30 PM, Brother Duke said:

Since the man of sin is a precursor before our gathering to Christ and many of us think the end times are here or near, how can we identify the man of sin and the beast?

 

2 Thess 2:1 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

Brother Duke,

I think it's a simple matter to identify the beast well before the A of D. He'll be the one who is the eighth and of the 7, with the deadly head wound that got healed. The A of D is not the identifier of the beast, rather it's the revealing of the true nature of the beast. I hate to say this because Matt 24 is for everyone but the A of D warning is for those in Judea as specified by Jesus.

"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Why? Because the wrath of the dragon is going to begin in Israel directed against the Jews, first. But again: Why? Isn't the revealing for everyone, not just Jews? Sure, but the Jews made a deal with the devil previous to this revealing when, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" happened here:

"Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:"

This is an end of the age passage about the beast and the 2nd advent from Isaiah 28. The Jews know what they have done but are willingly blind to it because they believed the benefits outweighed the risk. Of course it will not stand as Isaiah goes on to explain.

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth."

This 'overwhelming scourge' is the beast and the exceeding difficult trials upon the earth, beginning in Jerusalem. This is why Jesus spoke of the A of D coupled with the warning to those in Judea. It seems the inhabitants of Judea needed a special warning specifically for them as they will not allow themselves to see the beast with complete clarity, even though we who are watching can and will identify the beast from the start.

The beast isn't going to be part of any world governing body. He will not be a slick orator, perfectly coiffed, dressed to the nines with genius level political savvy; he will not come to power through military might or popular vote, he will rise to power through the influence of the dragon by the healing of the mortal wound, to wit;

"The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” 

If the beast rises to power through a world governing organization then why not say this in Rev 13? Or somewhere else in Rev? Or scripture? It's not going to happen that way. The beast receives power and authority directly from the dragon and the world is in awe of the beast because of the deadly head wound that was healed, not because he is Sec Gen of the UN.

I think this is a hard thing for many people to grasp. It's been so long the memories have faded into the deepest blackness, but there was a time when real power interacted in the realms of men, that time is coming again. Gods will walk the earth again and most will worship this power. 

"The fatal wound had been healed. The whole world followed the beast." Simple and clear identifier, well before the A of D. Why do they ask, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”  From the context there are three reasons: he was raised from the dead, and he has real power and authority. The world also worships the dragon. Can we see the dragon? Do we witness this being in physical form? I think so.

Some speculation:

How would we know the beast rises from the dead? I have heard reports of evangelists raising people from the dead. I don't disbelieve this but it can't be reliably verified. It's a real issue then to get the entire world to believe the beast was actually raised from the dead, or a deadly head wound healed. It's plausible the beast should be well known before this deadly wound occurs. What if this character is globally infamous? He commits some terrifying, brutal act that shocks the world and becomes a household name through social media. The act goes viral and everyone is disgusted and offended. In an evil parallel to the trial, conviction and execution of Jesus this man is caught and put on trial before the whole planet. Not a stretch if the depth of his infamy is truly shocking, we love to dwell in ambivalence.

We then witness the execution gone viral and some days later we witness the dead man walking, again gone viral. 

So we will know well before the A of D.

Here's an interesting quote by Graeme Wood in The New Republic:

"the Bahraini cleric Turki al-Bin’ali, cites a saying attributed to Muhammad that predicts a total of twelve caliphs before the end of the world. Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve..."  

https://newrepublic.com/article/119259/isis-history-islamic-states-new-caliphate-syria-and-iraq"

If this guy is the 8th of 12, then he is also "the eighth and is of the seven". Ever heard anyone else described this way? Baghdadi has the same tribal lineage as the first seven, and he is just as bloodthirsty as the first iteration of Islam when they demanded conversion on pain of death. This is really the truth behind the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay from the statue in Dan 2, Islam.

Bin'ali is now dead, killed in a coalition attack by a smart bomb. But Baghdadi is not dead yet. On the run, heard he was wounded. The Iraqi army wants him captured and is hot on his trail.

I'll be keeping close watch as always.

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Diaste

[Steve_S]

On 7/6/2018 at 6:24 PM, Brother Duke said:

What are your thoughts on the Beast of Revelation and of Daniel? 

I think the beast of Revelation 13 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the same person.

I think the "prince who is to come" in Daniel 9:27 is him as well (the people of the prince who is to come were obviously the romans, as they were the ones who destroyed the temple in 70 A.D., so it's likely that the final world empire is some sort of revived roman empire).

I think the "king" from Daniel 11:36 onward can also be identified as him (at the very least he cannot be identified as either a king of the north or a king of the south, because in the context of the chapter to that point the kings of the north and the south were the primary actors and he is attacked by both simultaneously).

I have seen some fairly decent arguments that the king from Daniel 8:23-25 is a double reference regarding both Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) and the beast, but all I am certain with in regard to that is that it is *at least* referring to Antiochus IV.

On 7/6/2018 at 6:24 PM, Brother Duke said:

Also what are your beliefs about the Abomination of Desolation?

I think the abomination of desolation is delineated in 2 Thessalonians.2Th 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 
2Th 2:4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 

I tend to think that there is indeed a physical temple, because I believe Antiochus IV was a type of the future man of sin and the abomination he set up was in a physical temple. I also think there's further evidence of this in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:1  Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

John was told to measure the temple. I think that's a reasonable indication that it's physical.

The biggest problem I have with the spiritualization of the temple with regards to this specific prophecy is that Christians are the Temple of God in the spiritual sense and if that is so, then the abomination would have to be set up by him in Christians, but that's the opposite of what we are told happens.

2Th 2:8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

The people who follow the man of sin/beast are those who did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Christians are not part of this category.

This is confirmed in Revelation 13.

Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only ones who will not worship him are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb. This seems to exclude those who are faithful witnesses of Christ (most or whom seem to be martyred during this same period, v 13:7).

On 7/8/2018 at 5:28 PM, Brother Duke said:

Also I am not sure about a full week.  Revelation only speaks of 1/2 a week and that is how long the man of sin has to rule.

Revelation may speak of more than one half a week.

Rev 11:3  And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

It would seem that their entire ministry cannot overlap with the beast, because the beast is able to kill them and they are resurrected three and a half days later and ascend to heaven.

Rev 11:11  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 
Rev 11:12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 
Rev 11:13  In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. 

Their ascension and the ensuing events ends the second woe. There are still further judgments to come after this. If one does the math on it. If their ministry started at the same time as the anti-Christ's abomination and ran concurrent (42 months equals 1,260 days exactly), then he would have to kill them on the day of final battle and then they would be resurrected and ascend three and a half days *after* Christ's return. This doesn't seem possible. Not to mention the fact that several judgments remain after their death. So, it seems likely, at the very least, that their ministry begins at some point before the 42 month period of the anti-Christ's rule, possibly long before, possibly even at the beginning of the 70th week, though one cannot be dogmatic on that point.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:48 AM, Da Puppers said:

2 Thess 2:8 makes the point that "the brightness of [Jesus'] his coming" will destroy the man of sin.   The brightness of his coming/ parousia IS the rapture,  which takes place [near] 3.5 years before the 2nd advent.   John makes the point that when Jesus comes at the time of Armageddon,  that BOTH the beast and the false prophet are cast into the ladle of fire.   This shows that neither one were destroyed at any time prior,  which includes the rapture.   So what does Paul mean when he says that the rapture will destroy the man of sin, if it is not simultaneous with his coming?   It is the point about his brightness that will destroy him.   The revelation of the glory of the Father,  will be what manifests the deeds of the man of sin as unmistakably evil and wicked.   The brightness of his coming will manifest,  it will reveal,  the full glory of God.   But until then: 

*[[1Ti 3:16]] KJV* And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Until the brightness of his coming in the rapture takes place,  the world,  in totu, does not know the righteousness of God, that sits currently at the FATHERS right hand.   The manifestation of that glory will be the undoing of the kingdom of darkness.   All of those that love the light will come to the light when faced with the sword of denial and darkness. 

*[[1Co 4:5]] KJV* Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

 

Gee, I hate to respond to this so long after the time of the post, but for some reason, I just now saw this. I notice what I think are some oversights that lead to misunderstanding.

These things are that the "brightness of His coming", is a reference to when He comes visible, where every eye shall see Him, as the lightning shines from the east even unto the west etc, are all references to His revelation at His second coming, which Jesus said was immediately after the tribulation.

Also, that parousia is not that same as the rapture, though they could happen in such close chronological sequence as to be all but indistinguishable in terms of the delay between the events (as in twinkling of the eye quick). The rapture is us going up to Him, the parousia is Him coming down to where we now are (well more exactly to the holy land).

The parousia, has a technical meaning. It is made from Greek words for "alongside" & "I am". That is why it is often translated as arrival or presence. It is His coming to the earth, to be here, not hanging up in the sky somewhere. Parousia, is contrasted with apousia, or absence.

parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[(parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

So the New Testament does associate the parousia with the rapture, that much is true. It even states that the rapture comes before His presence. The trouble is that some fail to notice that His revelation, the catching up of believers to be with Him forever, and His return to earth are all following the great tribulation, wherever the events are specified in any chronological detail or sequence.