So Where Are We Now?

[iamlamad]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:57 AM, Diaste said:

This may seem off topic...

When did we get to truth consisting of, "I think....", or "I believe..." instead of, "The Lord says...", "As it is written...", or "The scriptures say..."?

I don't see where it's ok just to believe anything and it's truth.

 

A question like: "Where are we now in the book of Revelation?" is not written anywhere, so how could someone say "as it is written?" 

[iamlamad]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:02 AM, RevelationWriter said:

- Being a follower of Jesus The Christ most my life

I think I heard every possible 'end time prophecy' scenario for God's people.

- But now I'm thinking we could be in the time of The 4th Seal.

Which by the way we have nothing to fear from as

it's of 'the fourth part of the earth'. -  Rev.6:7,8 Greek.

And Hades following Death isn't for God's people.

I believe 'the fourth part of the earth' to be over in the middle east'.

 

I think we are between the 5th seal, representing the martyrs of the church age, and the 6th seal which will start the Day of the Lord. Paul tells us that the moment after the rapture, THE DAY begins. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

A question like: "Where are we now in the book of Revelation?" is not written anywhere, so how could someone say "as it is written?" 

My point exactly. Questions like the above lead to speculation that is not based in truth.  It takes people away from the written word and down the path of distraction into make believe.

If what is written in scripture concerning prophecy has not occurred then we are just where we are in the timeline. Ideas like the first seal being opened in the first century is just opinion and not fact based.

The prophecies given concerning the end of the age are certain to come to come to pass in real visible ways so that everyone can know what is happening. God will be glorified as his word comes to pass and the world will begin to witness the power of the Lord Most High.

That being said we can only know where we are in the timeline by what is clearly written and not conjecture, supposition, opinion, wishful thinking and/or make believe.

We are not in the timeline of Revelation by any stretch of imagination as the beast is not risen.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place." This means one generation will witness all the things Jesus spoke in Matt 24:3-51.

If then this is the end of the age and the coming of the Lord, and it is as the disciples asked pointedly, "What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?", then the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to Him by His Father is the detailed account of Matt 24:3-51 including Mark 13:3-37 and Luke 21:7-36, all of which comes to pass in a relatively short time in the sight of a single generation.

Matthew, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place."

Mark, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place."

Luke, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place."

So no, we are not in the timeline of Revelation just yet.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

My point exactly. Questions like the above lead to speculation that is not based in truth.  It takes people away from the written word and down the path of distraction into make believe.

If what is written in scripture concerning prophecy has not occurred then we are just where we are in the timeline. Ideas like the first seal being opened in the first century is just opinion and not fact based.

The prophecies given concerning the end of the age are certain to come to come to pass in real visible ways so that everyone can know what is happening. God will be glorified as his word comes to pass and the world will begin to witness the power of the Lord Most High.

That being said we can only know where we are in the timeline by what is clearly written and not conjecture, supposition, opinion, wishful thinking and/or make believe.

We are not in the timeline of Revelation by any stretch of imagination as the beast is not risen.

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place." This means one generation will witness all the things Jesus spoke in Matt 24:3-51.

If then this is the end of the age and the coming of the Lord, and it is as the disciples asked pointedly, "What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?", then the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to Him by His Father is the detailed account of Matt 24:3-51 including Mark 13:3-37 and Luke 21:7-36, all of which comes to pass in a relatively short time in the sight of a single generation.

Matthew, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place."

Mark, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things take place."

Luke, "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place."

So no, we are not in the timeline of Revelation just yet.

 

How funny! You break your own rules!

"If what is written in scripture concerning prophecy has not occurred then we are just where we are in the timeline. Ideas like the first seal being opened in the first century is just opinion and not fact based."

This IS written in the scripture and it IS fact - but it is also a fact you just don't believe what is written because it does not fit your preconceptions. How many times have I told you to take your preconceived glasses OFF!  We have the context of the first seal, which is chapters 4 & 5, which you don't believe, and then we have a parallel scripture in Matthew 24 where Jesus TELLS US He is not talking about end times - and you don't believe Him!

"The prophecies given concerning the end of the age are certain to come to come to pass in real visible ways so that everyone can know what is happening. "

Exactly!  Seal 1 is the church sent out with the Gospel. It is OBVIOUS that happened! There is hardly a place on the planet we can go where one cannot find the gospel. 

"That being said we can only know where we are in the timeline by what is clearly written and not conjecture, supposition, opinion, wishful thinking and/or make believe."

Again, I agree: But you don't believe what is clearly written: John SHOWS US CLEARLY the moment Jesus ascended back into the throne room, and sent the Holy Spirit down, but you just can't seem to believe it. Again, you should know this: John CLEARLY has shown us that the 6th seal has not come, but we are in the time of the 5th seal - waiting for the last church age martyr. Your preconceptions are showing.

"We are not in the timeline of Revelation by any stretch of imagination as the beast is not risen."

There is much in Revelation BEFORE the midpoint of Revelation. It is church age stuff.  John wrote, "I, John, in the tribulation..." which was 95 AD events. 

Are we witnessing earthquakes in various places? I live in Oklahoma: for a while, we had more earthquakes that any other place. Thankfully they were small. We have witnesses famines and pestilences. We witnessed Israel becoming a nation again, and Jerusalem returning into Jewish hands. 

We should be looking UP for our redemption is very near!

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

we have a parallel scripture in Matthew 24 where Jesus TELLS US He is not talking about end times - and you don't believe Him!

Well, I cannot believe that which doesn't exist. If you are referencing, "for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." as proof you are way off. This is a reference to the end of the age as queried by the disciples. This in no way "TELLS US He is not talking about end times"  as the END must come in the END TIMES. It's obvious Jesus is speaking about the end times and saying the END is not just yet. Coupled with the fact that Jesus says a single generation will witness everything written in Matt 24:3-51 means these thing can only occur near in time to each other so that the people alive at the time will see ALL THESE THINGS. Which means none of the events in Matt 24 or Revelation can be strewn about over two millennia.

 

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Exactly!  Seal 1 is the church sent out with the Gospel. It is OBVIOUS that happened! There is hardly a place on the planet we can go where one cannot find the gospel. 

Yes, I know you believe this but it's incorrect. The 1st seal is the rise of the beast after the deadly head wound whence begineth the end times. You'll see. At least I think it will happen in our lifetime. Islam has risen in the form from the past, it's leader has been described as the 8th of 12 therefore the 8th and of the previous 7, the Jewish need for the Temple is coinciding with Islamic beliefs of Dajjal, some imams as well as leaders of Arabic nations have lent support for a Jewish Temple, and the Jews have all the necessary accoutrements of said Temple, including the red heifer. So, yeah...it's near. 

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Again, I agree: But you don't believe what is clearly written: John SHOWS US CLEARLY the moment Jesus ascended back into the throne room, and sent the Holy Spirit down, but you just can't seem to believe it. Again, you should know this: John CLEARLY has shown us that the 6th seal has not come, but we are in the time of the 5th seal - waiting for the last church age martyr. Your preconceptions are showing.

Well no, I don't believe your opinion. John shows no such thing. I have heard your explanation but it's not well supported. It's also refuted by this: "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

The above is describing Jesus. Already glorified, already in heaven, before the prophecy begins, and well after the resurrection and Pentecost. How does this square with your contention that Jesus was not in heaven until Chapter 4 when it's clear he is ascended and glorified from the start?

Your contention is also refuted by this:

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Paul says Jesus is in the presence of God, NOW, long before John wrote Revelation. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is much in Revelation BEFORE the midpoint of Revelation. It is church age stuff.  John wrote, "I, John, in the tribulation..." which was 95 AD events. 

What? You misquote to prove your point. In other words what you have said above is a lie. John did NOT say, "I, John, in the tribulation..." John said, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation..." This is the reason why none of what you say can be trusted apart from through scrutiny.

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is church age stuff.

No such thing as "church age stuff". Do you  have a clue as to the definition of "Church" in the NT? It's an assembly, congregation. The same idea used in the OT, assembly, congregation, meeting...No change, all members of the followers of Jesus Christ from the very beginning to the end of time. 

Paul tells you, Iamlamad, to not be ignorant. Listen, if you can.

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

The 'church' began long ago, in the time of the Patriarchs. The 'church age' has been since Abraham. 

Maybe you can hear this:

" By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."

 

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well, I cannot believe that which doesn't exist. If you are referencing, "for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." as proof you are way off. This is a reference to the end of the age as queried by the disciples. This in no way "TELLS US He is not talking about end times"  as the END must come in the END TIMES. It's obvious Jesus is speaking about the end times and saying the END is not just yet. Coupled with the fact that Jesus says a single generation will witness everything written in Matt 24:3-51 means these thing can only occur near in time to each other so that the people alive at the time will see ALL THESE THINGS. Which means none of the events in Matt 24 or Revelation can be strewn about over two millennia.

We both know that they asked Jesus about the end of the age - but they also ask when the temple would be destroyed. In fact, Jesus never answered that question. However, Jesus CHOSE to start right then in history (exactly as He did with John in Revelation) and cover the church age and then get to the "end."  He shows us this when He said, "the end is not yet."  I challenge you to look at 24:6 is as many translations as you can find. The principle is very simple: Jesus does not start talking about "the end" until He mentions "the end."  As many others do, you wish to move "the end" back into the church age. 

Were there many earthquakes in my state of Oklahoma in Jesus day? I doubt that very much! I did a search on earthquakes. These small earthquakes did not begin until AFTER Israel became a nation - in 1948. There is proof of this.  Big earthquakes  have always been, but as the end draws near, there are more and more. 

Wars have always been, but as the end draws near, they get worse and more people are involved and die. 

Therefore none of these things Jesus spoke of started and ended before the end - they started and will continue to the end.

This means all of the events of Matthew 24 EXCEPT Israel becoming a nation again (the fig tree budding) started way back than are are continuing to the end, but getting worse - as birth pains progress towards birth.

We have four witnesses to this truth. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, I know you believe this but it's incorrect. The 1st seal is the rise of the beast after the deadly head wound whence begineth the end times. You'll see. At least I think it will happen in our lifetime. Islam has risen in the form from the past, it's leader has been described as the 8th of 12 therefore the 8th and of the previous 7, the Jewish need for the Temple is coinciding with Islamic beliefs of Dajjal, some imams as well as leaders of Arabic nations have lent support for a Jewish Temple, and the Jews have all the necessary accoutrements of said Temple, including the red heifer. So, yeah...it's near. act, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

Of course you are free to believe error if you choose. Anybody can. The truth is, there is NOTHING in the words of the first seal to even HINT it is speaking of the Antichrist - and there ARE words that prove otherwise. For example, you imagine God would use the color white for the Antichrist, when Revelation proves otherwise. You imagine God would have John write the color "white" 16 other times for righteousness, and just this once for something evil. I am here to deny God would do this. If God used white 16 other times for righteousness, we can BE SURE that is His intended meaning here.  Then I remind you once again you are pulling that first seal OUT of its CONTEXT. That is the ONLY way you can make it mean something in our future - for the context is around 32 AD. 

I agree with you, the end is near! In that we can agree. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well no, I don't believe your opinion. John shows no such thing. I have heard your explanation but it's not well supported. It's also refuted by this: "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

The above is describing Jesus. Already glorified, already in heaven, before the prophecy begins, and well after the resurrection and Pentecost. How does this square with your contention that Jesus was not in heaven until Chapter 4 when it's clear he is ascended and glorified from the start?

Your contention is also refuted by this:

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Paul says Jesus is in the presence of God, NOW, long before John wrote Revelation. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. 

 

You seem to have no concept of time or timing. John saw this vision around 95 AD. OF COURSE JEsus was already glorified and in heaven at that point in time - but this was NOT A VISION: this was John seeing Jesus for real! John did not begin to see any kind of revelation until chapter 4. 

You seem to have no knowledge of visions either! A vision can be of any time our even outside of time. God is very well able to show visions of the past, and this vision is VERY WELL supported by the text itself. The problem is, your preconceived glasses are not allowing you to see God's intent in this passage.  You IMAGINE Jesus in the throne room when HE was not there, and you imagine He did not just arrive when He DID just arrive. You are ignoring or just not understanding TIME and TIMING. 

You really need to camp out on chapters 4 & 5 until you understand.  Remember Jesus' three questions to me? Remember what He told me? "Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will NEVER understand this part of John's vision." The same of course goes for anyone. 

WHERE do I get "this stuff?"  It is written in black and white (or red) in the words of John's book. You just don't believe it, because it does not fit your preconceived theory.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

What? You misquote to prove your point. In other words what you have said above is a lie. John did NOT say, "I, John,  the tribulation..." John said, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation..." This is the reason why none of what you say can be trusted apart from through scrutiny.

No such thing as "church age stuff". Do you  have a clue as to the definition of "Church" in the NT? It's an assembly, congregation. The same idea used in the OT, assembly, congregation, meeting... No change, all members of the followers of Jesus Christ from the very beginning to the end of time. 

Paul tells you, Iamlamad, to not be ignorant. Listen, if you can.

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

The 'church' began long ago, in the time of the Patriarchs. The 'church age' has been since Abraham. 

Maybe you can hear this:

" By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."

 

No, I did not lie, I was just writing from memory. And if you look in the Greek in ANY manuscript, you will find "THE" before the Greek word for "tribulation."  I guess you are so perfect your memory never is faulty! I congratulate you!

OF COURSE there is "church age." You just don't believe the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 9:17

For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

 

Ephesians 3:2

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

 

We don't live under "the law." Did you not read?

 

Matthew 11:13

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

 

We live under grace. It is an age. It is a dispensation. The KJV translators had no problem with this word: when then do you? 

 

"No change"

 

Where in the world have you been?  OF COURSE there has been change! The second person of the Godhood came to earth to be born of a virgin - to take on the flesh of humans. He died and then rose again, making it possible even for those in the Old Covenant to leave Hades and be escorted into heaven. 

 

In case you missed it: It was NECESSARY for Christ to die and be raised from the dead - else your sins and the sins of the world would remain. You amaze me!

[Archangel Thyos]

On 8/18/2018 at 8:02 AM, RevelationWriter said:

- Being a follower of Jesus The Christ most my life

I think I heard every possible 'end time prophecy' scenario for God's people.

 - But now I'm thinking we could be in the time of The 4th Seal.

Which by the way we have nothing to fear from as

it's of 'the fourth part of the earth'. -  Rev.6:7,8 Greek.

And Hades following Death isn't for God's people.

 I believe 'the fourth part of the earth' to be over in the middle east'.

  

I've always viewed revelation as both an illustration of the end of earth AND the illustration of god's process of evangelism.