Do You Really Love The Sinner Hate The Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

How can we love others as we love ourselves if we put limits on our relationships with unbelievers and exclude a certain people only because they are not believers.

Loving others as we love ourselves is rooted in action, not emotion and furthermore, we are a holy people and we are separate from the world and those in the world.  That is true both positionally and practically as a Christians.   There needs to be noticeable separation.   In fact, it was noticeable in the first and second century as those believers were considered "anti-social" and "atheistic" in the Roman Empire.  

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God loves us unconditionally, so this is how we should love others, even those who do not yet know Christ. We can love people without loving the wicked world that they are a part of. We can be friends with the individual, but not a friend to the world. 

Loving your neighbor and being their friend are not interchangeable concepts.   I can help my neighbor without being their friend.   If my neighbor's unbelieving wife was in need of help, I could help her, but she and I would not be friends.   I would not be unfriendly, but neither would I be her friend.  And to be honest, I am not friends with ANY married women who are believers.  I am on friendly terms, with them, but they are married and I keep them at an arm's length as I think that is appropriate and godly.   

 

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It's clear we are to associate with unbelievers, if not reaching the lost would be impossible. I also believe it is important to have friendships with unbelievers as part of our personal witness.

I associate with unbelievers all of the time, as I believe we are to be accessible.  But nowhere is there a call in the Bible for us to be friends with unbelievers. 

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It shows the unbelieving world that we love all people without exception and do not discriminate.

Not all discrimination is bad.  I make choices about who to let in my life on the basis of their contribution to my spiritual well being;  that's discrimination.   Non-believers don't make that cut.   That is a necessary safeguard and it enables me to present the Gospel with greater clarity and I am not hampered with a friendship that will go sour when I bring up the uncomfortable aspects of the Gospel.   

 

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It's difficult to share the gospel with with unbelievers and then refuse to be friends with them just because they have not yet accepted Christ, or even worse to end our friendships with unbelievers once we ourselves accept Christ. That's sending the wrong message to the unbelieving world in my opinion.  

Not is it not difficult at all.   I can share the Gospel with anyone and not be their friend until they accept Christ.   It's not send a wrong message at all.   I have something to share with them that is far better than "friendship."  I am presenting them with eternal life and the chance to be connected with the Creator of the Universe. I am offering them a relationship with someone who loves them infinitely more than I ever could and who can love them right down to the very core of their being, and bring them ultimately fulfillment.  I am offering them an escape from Hell and from God's judgment.  I am showing them the plan that will save their lives. That is how we glorify God.   My friendship pales in comparison with what I am sharing with them.   

If you're not sharing the reality of Hell, the judgement of God, the promise of eternal life, the plan of salvation that God has provided for them and bringing them into the knowledge true salvation, security, deliverance and ultimate fulfillment, you are NOT their friend.

[one.opinion]

In a sermon I heard a couple of weeks ago, the pastor was teaching from Mark 2:13-17. He suggested that reclining at the table (verse 15) was a gesture of a strong friendship. Obviously this is not the same deep level as described in John 15, but what do you all think of the pastor's claim regarding Mark 2?

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

In a sermon I heard a couple of weeks ago, the pastor was teaching from Mark 2:13-17. He suggested that reclining at the table (verse 15) was a gesture of a strong friendship. Obviously this is not the same deep level as described in John 15, but what do you all think of the pastor's claim regarding Mark 2?

Luke 5 tells us that it was a banquet held by Matthew in Jesus' honor and Matthew invited those who the Pharisees considered to be sinners (and for good reason).   This custom has more to do with honor than friendship, as these were public events that excluded those considered unworthy to attend.  The most honored guest would sit at the right hand of the host.   

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, naominash said:

Can you speak on the difference between just associating or being accessible with non-believers and being their friend? 

Sure, I invite unbelievers to church and if they show up, I sit with them and introduce them to others.   I have led Bible studies at a local mission.   I have invited unbelievers to eat a meal and talk to them about the Lord and they know that up front what my intentions are and some accept the invite and some don't.   I engaged with them on a local college campus.   I try to make my associations an opportunity to share.   I have prayed for them in their presence and they always seem to like that.   That's what it looks like in my life. 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

I'm going to stick with Paul being friends with unbelievers since the definition of the word used for friend (phílos), despite being in slightly different context, means the same in both verses. This also seems to be the consensus among several Bible commentaries related to this verse as well. 

Yes because you have to ignore context and sound hermeneutics In order to make the verse mean what you want it to mean. And the difference in context is not "slight" at all.  They could not be more different.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Badjao33 said:

That doesn't change the meaning of the word. The Bible says that they were friends. 

Meaning based on definition is not the same as meaning based on usage/context.  And Context trumps definitions.   So you can carp all you want about the definitions of words.   They are used in two totally and significantly different ways. And anyone with any skill in the Word of God can see that.

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

When do you believe the disciples became born again? 

During Jesus ministry, but only 11 of them.  Judas was never a believer. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 16:16-17).   Jesus told Peter that this was revealed to Him by the Father in Heaven.  Those are not the words of an unsaved man, a man born from above. 

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (John 6:6-9).  

Those verses indicate that when Jesus was talking about how to receive eternal life from him that most of his disciples forsook him never to follow him any longer.   But the 12 disciples remained.  Peter and those disciples recognized Jesus as the giver of eternal life, they knew who Jesus was and were His true followers (with the exception of Judas).

Their indwelling by the Holy Spirit came later during the dispensation of grace. 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

If I said "My friends told me that I should not swim in the ocean today because the undertow is strong."  How would you define friends in that sentence? 

I would understand the word the way you intended for me to understand it. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Exactly, so when the Bile says "Some of the Asiarchs who were friends of Paul sent to him and repeatedly urged him not to venture into the theater."  How should we define the word friends? 

We should examine the context and usage.   The original Greek is far more nuanced than English and we often throw words around in a manner that the Bible doesn't.  If we fall into he trap of taking things at face value instead of what is actually meant by the author we run into the kinds of problems that come from really bad hermeneutics.

[Guest shiloh357]

28 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

The disciples were born again in the same way you and I were, so it had to have happened after the Resurrection.  

Salvation was always by grace through faith, even before the cross.   The only thing was they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost. 

 

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This would mean that throughout His ministry He was friends with people that had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.  

 

But they were saved already.  They were already believers.