The Trinity

[Trust & Obey]

hmh, i do not think that belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is required for salvation.

I personally believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but do not find it mandated anywhere in Scripture. You are saved the moment Christ cleanses you from sin and takes residence in your life. Usually, this happens before you have come to any conclusions on the various doctrinal positions that are out there.

We are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not by doctrinal persuasions. Jesus is so much bigger than doctrine, although correct doctrine is essential in the Christian life.

But, I do believe that you must accept the deity of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Jesus said;

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The word "he" that is italicized has been inserted by the translators of the KJV. The original says that "unless you believe that I am (I am = ego eimi in the Greek). This is the same phrase God used of Himself in Ex. 3:14. I believe Jesus here is saying that we must believe that He is Almighty God.

BTW, are you UPC? I have a friend who is UPC and although we do not agree on SO MANY issues, I genuinely believe that he is a brother in the Lord and we have great fellowship. Some consider UPC a cult, but again I think Jesus is so much bigger than denominations/sects.

In Him...

Edited May 23, 2005 by Trust & Obey

[hmh]

hmh, i do not think that belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is required for salvation.

I personally believe the doctrine of the Trinity, but do not find it mandated anywhere in Scripture. You are saved the moment Christ cleanses you from sin and takes residence in  your life. Usually, this happens before you have come to any conclusions on the various doctrinal positions that are out there.

We are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not by doctrinal persuasions. Jesus is so much bigger than doctrine, although correct doctrine is essential in the Christian life.

But, I do believe that you must accept the deity of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Jesus said;

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The word "he" that is italicized has been inserted by the translators of the KJV. The original says that "unless you believe that I am (I am = ego eimi in the Greek). This is the same phrase God used of Himself in Ex. 3:14. I believe Jesus here is saying that we must believe that He is Almighty God.

BTW, are you UPC? I have a friend who is UPC and although we do not agree on SO MANY issues, I genuinely believe that he is a brother in the Lord and we have great fellowship. Some consider UPC a cult, but again I think Jesus is so much bigger than denominations/sects.

In Him...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Trust & Obey. I don't know what a UPC is, so I guess not. It is a breath of fresh air knowing that doctrines are not what gets you in heaven. I have been beaten over the head and told I'm going to hell for not believing in this doctrine or that, so it's good to know that there are Christians who believe that we are saved by grace and not by man-made doctrines. I hope to chat with you more often.

In God's Love

[Trust & Obey]

I have been beaten over the head and told I'm going to hell for not believing in this doctrine or that, so it's good to know that there are Christians who believe that we are saved by grace and not by man-made doctrines.  I hope to chat with you more often.

In God's Love

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Praise the Lord, hmh.

I agree that we can get a little too zealous over certain things.

For the record, I do not think that the Trinity is a "man-made doctrine." I think that the Bible clearly teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Yet, the Bible maintains that there is only 1 God. Hence, the 3 manifestations must be the 1 God.

It isn't the easiest thing to understand, but that shouldn't be an issue. Remember;

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If we could understand everything about God, then God would not be God.

But, I do respect the views of those who do not believe in the Trinity. I've been through lengthy discussions with a friend of mine (mentioned earlier) who can articulate his views quite clearly, but it is my opinion that is is just as clearly wrong. But, we can agree to disagree agreeably

I would love to chat with you via PM or something on the topic.

[Trust & Obey]

Greetings Trust & Obey. I don't know what a UPC is, so I guess not. It is a breath of fresh air knowing that doctrines are not what gets you in heaven. I have been beaten over the head and told I'm going to hell for not believing in this doctrine or that, so it's good to know that there are Christians who believe that we are saved by grace and not by man-made doctrines. I hope to chat with you more often.

In God's Love

Um...

1 Timothy 1:4 - Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:16 - Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Naw...doctrine isn't important at all man...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WSB, you completely missed the point of the question, my brother.

The question was whether or not belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation. I think the answer is clearly no.

If you think otherwise, that is fine, but please demonstrate it from Scripture if you are going to hold others to the doctrine in this way.

[godrulz]

The Hindu 'trinity' is 3 main gods among millions of gods (polytheism). Neither the word nor the concept originated with them. The Christian Trinity is a compound unity= one God (essence) with 3 personal distinctions (monotheism).

[Trinity]

Deuteronomy 6:4 is a great verse to prove Jesus is God, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord." In Hebrew there are two words for the word one, the word (ECHAD) meaning united group, and the second word for one is (YACHIYD), which means alone or single. That saying, if you take the bible for what it means it states, "The LORD our God is a united group, yet one Lord."

Genesis 2:24 states,

[Fisher of Men]

Body, soul and spirit make up one person not three.

Father Son and Holy Ghost make up one Person not three.

That is why Jesus is said to be the everlasting Father in Isa., the Holy Ghost in John and the Son and Word (which is God) also in John.

Was Jesus' body there with Abraham?

He is obviously referring to what he was in essence aside from his 30 year old or so physical body. That same physical body was not what Abraham saw.

So likewise, what we see in Revelation (also written by John) is the resurrected Christ. So when He says I am alpha and omega etc., he is doing the same thing as he was when speaking of being seen by Abraham. That is what he is in essence, the first and the last, the Word, the Everlasting Father, The Spirit of God.

When Jesus said he was in heaven at the same time he was speaking on earth, (John 3:13) was he speaking of his fleshly body in heaven? No, his fleshly body was very much planted on earth. He was speaking of God in Him. God was in Him yet God was also in Heaven.

So if you can agree that in John 8 about Abraham and in John 3 about Him being in heaven at the same time as on earth not referring to the physical or the present body at the time of speaking, then why can't it also be accepted that in Rev. 1 about alpha and omega that he is again referring to what he is in spiritual essence, the eternal God?

But you have used Rev. to refer to that present resurrected glorified body as being what has been from everlasting the beginning and the end etc.

There is a convenient instability at work here.

By separating into 3 separate persons, then the scriptures showing overlap between the three have to be wangled in explanation to deny the overlap. Not so with the depth of understanding that the 3 are one "person".

If the scriptures showing overlap didn't exist then we could accept the no-overlap clear-cut no-mystery explanation of "trinity". But because these scriptures exist we must conform to adopt a depth of understanding and acceptance to accommodate ALL of the scriptures that relate to the godhead.

(Again the word trinity is often used to mean "godhead" when in reality it is a particular explanation or theory of what the godhead is.)

The objection of how Jesus could be praying to Himself, as it were, is explained by the biblically provided analogy of the singular body having different members.

Jesus is said to be the right arm of God. Our right arm sends messages to the head via pain etc. There was a separation between Father and Son and at the same time there was an indivisible oneness as there is in our own bodies.

This kind of explanation accommodates the numerous verses showing overlap between the titles of Father Son and Holy Ghost.

The clear cut trinity doctrine would say Jesus was on earth and the Father and the Holy Ghost were in heaven.

But the truth is that Jesus said he was in heaven at the same time he was on earth.

He was an extension of the one Person of God as the arm of God extended to mankind to fulfil God's purpose of crushing the serpents head.

That is how the prophecy of Jesus could be made that the Son was to be named the everlasting Father.

I still need a definition of "persons".

I think some agree with me but are afraid to define persons as offices in a certain sense.

Was Jesus a person? Absolutely. He had the same corruptible stinking flesh that you and I have, but he did not commit sin because of the Holy Spirit in Him. "God was in Christ". Heb. 4: "was in all points tempted like as we are".

Yet that person, the Son must be looked at spiritually as the right arm of the singular person of God Almighty Himself in order for our understanding of Him to fit the numerous profound scriptures concerning himself.

He being the extension or arm of the One God is how He was also to be called "the Almighty God" as well as the "Everlasting Father."

I don't deny any scriptures on the godhead, I explain them so as to accommodate the profound verses showing complete and indiscriminate overlap (Jesus being the I Am and Father and Creator and Alpha and Omega and Holy Ghost etc.)

I believe Jesus to be God to the scriptural extent that the trinity theory does not allow me.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Sam68]

Early Christians rejected Trinity. They also had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not:

Early Christians rejected Trinity:

The following was sent to me by brother Fikirman; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Muslims are not the only ones who believe that Jesus is mortal and not a god so that means they deny the trinity.

The Jews also reject the trinity, in addition to the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus as a prophet of God and against the trinity.

Even in the modern age there are churches in Asia, in Africa, the Unitarian church, the Jehovah's witnesses, and even the majority of today's Anglican Bishops do not worship Jesus as one in three, as what been report by the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops."

Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.

Johannes Greber (1874) a former of Catholic priest in his book 'The Communication with the Spirit World of God' in page 371 was written, "As you see, the doctrine of a triune Godhead is not only contrary to common sense, but is entirely unsupported by the Scriptures". So another priest who was deny the trinity.

A theologians, Edouard Schillebeeckx of the Netherlands in 1979 was writings some article that rejects the doctrine of the Trinity. This caused concern to the Vatican.

Question to Trinitarian Christians:

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?

arly Christians, especially during the 2nd century, had major disagreements and problems with each others about the identity of Jesus and whether or not he got crucified:

[ayin jade]

Early Christians rejected Trinity:

The following was sent to me by brother Fikirman; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

See here is the problem Sam. You do not seek the Lord on this. You rely on the words of man, your islamic apologists, not the truths of the Lord as He states in the bible. The apologists are spiritually blinded.

[ayin jade]

At no point was there any doubt about Jesus having been crucified. That is something islam doesnt want to accept because then they would have to accept His resurrection and what it means. Early Christians did not doubt that.