What Paul Says

[discipler777]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:45 PM, LadyKay said:

So in another thread, I was accused of behaving like a cheery picking liberal Christian and of not believing that what Paul says is applicable to follow in today's world.  So I wanted to get some feed back about a passage that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians.   Which says: 

   Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

1TIMOTHY.2:8-15 (NKJV) = Men and Women in the Church

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

[discipler777]

4 hours ago, maryjayne said:

4 hours ago, Butero said:

Without getting into something that is too personal, can you explain why it is sometimes necessary?  If it is too personal, I understand, and won't push the issue.  I am trying to understand you.  

My husband and son have High Functioning Aspergers, both recently diagnosed, but its been obvious for years. So I have to step into the gaps in their comprehension about certain things and situations, especially involving emotions and scheduling and danger awareness. Its hard. My son is 25 years old and lives with us.

Quote

thats why I am asking, because, right up til now, i hadnt given it a thought that I might be doing that. But even so, I still have to do it sometimes and hope God understands.

God's Law/commandments usually apply to normal people, situations and times, ie not to disabled people, emergency situations and war times.

If the husband becomes disabled, mentally or physically, the Christian wife should take over headship of the family, in consultation with his brothers or father or uncles or male cousins.

[discipler777]

5 hours ago, Butero said:

The primary way men obey Jesus is by obeying His Word.  He isn't actually standing beside us having a conversation and telling us what to do, at least not as a general rule.  He instructs us through His Word.  Even in cases where the husband isn't following Christ, wives are supposed to obey them unless they are telling the wives to sin.  

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;  While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.  1 Peter 3:1,2

I have seen some people claim that wives don't have to obey their husband if they feel they are not obeying Christ, but that is clearly not true.  We will all give an account to God of our behavior as individuals at the judgment.  God will deal with men that refused to obey him in His own time.  

1PETER.2:21-23 (NKJV) =  Submission to Masters ...

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; ...

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ROMANS.12:19-21 = 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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Biblical history tells us that very bad things happened to the Jews and Jewish Temple authorities who murdered Jesus Christ and went on to persecute and martyr the early Jewish Christians, eg Stephen at ACTS.7. Similarly, very bad things will happen to Christian husbands who unrepentantly do not obey the word/commandments or love their wives like themselves. In ancient times, it was often the husbands who hold power/authority over the family purse strings = open rebellion by wives over sins/injustice by their husbands would have made things worse, similar to a US citizen rebelling against the powerful US Federal or State government.

Sometimes, it is justified for the Christian brethren to judge righteously and take action against powerful authorities who are evil/sins/injustice/unrighteousness collectively, eg the 1517 Protestant Reformation led by a rebel German monk professor against corrupt papal indulgences and the 1776 American Revolution against the greedy and powerful British Imperial colonialists. Imagine if there had been no such revolution or "rebellion" or non-submission to unjust authority.

The Christian brethren should feed themselves when they can do so, instead of waiting for God to spoon-feed them. God gave His Law/commandments to Moses and the Jews which were then mainly enforced by Moses and a collective Jewish leadership, ie not by God directly. Today, it is the powerful US government who enforces just laws against criminals in USA. Of course, God also still does His part in enforcing His justice against sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers, be they Jews or Greeks/Gentiles.(ROMANS.2)

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Edited December 3, 2018 by discipler777

[jeremiah1five]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:45 AM, LadyKay said:

So in another thread, I was accused of behaving like a cheery picking liberal Christian and of not believing that what Paul says is applicable to follow in today's world.  So I wanted to get some feed back about a passage that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians.   Which says: 

   Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

 I myself do not know of any church that completely follows this passage of scripture. If you attend a church that dose follow this completely, or you yourself follow it ? How is it carried out?   Are all the women in your church silent not allowed to speak at all? As Paul seems to be saying here? How dose that work?  Also I don't understand what Paul means here by saying "as the law says". I thought that when Christ died, we were free from following "the Law".  What law is Paul referring to here? 

So anyway, I welcome your feedback on this and I will not try to do anything to change your mind on your thoughts about this passage. Though I may pop in a comment here and there.  

QUOTE: "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.  If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

 I myself do not know of any church that completely follows this passage of scripture. If you attend a church that dose follow this completely, or you yourself follow it ? How is it carried out?   Are all the women in your church silent not allowed to speak at all? As Paul seems to be saying here? How dose that work?  Also I don't understand what Paul means here by saying "as the law says". I thought that when Christ died, we were free from following "the Law".  What law is Paul referring to here?"

RESPONSE: When Paul wrote this to the Christians already saved at Corinth the subject matter from 1Co. 12-14 has to do with the gifts of the Spirit of which he is addressing the Vocal Gifts (prophecy, interpretation, tongues). It makes no sense for Paul to instruct in the vocal gifts - of which he is speaking about prophecy and then at conclusion he commands the women to remain/stay quiet. Although Corinth was a Roman province it still had Hebrews/"Jews" living in these territories and with a synagogue sprinkled here and there that housed the Chosen People of God every Saturday for worship. Under the Law the men and women would sit separately - men sat with men and women sat with women. This made communication with their husbands very disruptive when a question was needing an answer, the women could not turn to their side-kick and ask, but the question would be shouted across the room. 

"As saith the law" does not refer to the Law of Moses, but the law of the synagogue which parted the husbands and their wives from sitting near each other. 

There is nothing in the Law of Moses about women not talking/shutting up in congregation. As a matter of fact it was the women - in my guestimation - that outnumbered the men in the vocal gifts of which prophetess and prophecy were hand in hand.

[LadyKay]

8 hours ago, discipler777 said:

1TIMOTHY.2:8-15 (NKJV) = Men and Women in the Church

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Okay.  My whole point of this thread was really to ask if anyone here attends a church where this is followed? Are the women in your church not allowed to teach? Or not allowed to teach men? Or have to sit in silences?   I like to know how that all works. 

Thank You. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by LadyKay

[Guest Butero]

40 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

Okay.  My whole point of this thread was really to ask if anyone here attends a church where this is followed? Are the women in your church not allowed to teach? Or not allowed to teach men? Or have to sit in silences?   I like to know how that all works. 

Thank You. 

I used to Pastor a church where we followed that scripture according to the correct meaning where women were not to  disrupt the services by talking back and forth to their husbands.  We followed all New Testament teachings to the best of our ability, and I still would.  Others are reading things into this passage it doesn't mean.  

[Guest Butero]

46 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

Okay.  My whole point of this thread was really to ask if anyone here attends a church where this is followed? Are the women in your church not allowed to teach? Or not allowed to teach men? Or have to sit in silences?   I like to know how that all works. 

Thank You. 

Given the teaching in the Bible about Adam and Eve, and women nor usurping authority over the man, I can see the wisdom in a church limiting the role of female Pastors and Teachers to groups of women and children.  This would not be hard to do, and they could still use their gifts.  

[LadyKay]

My final thoughts on women being told they have to obey their husbands is this.  A happy wife means happy life. ?