What Paul Says

[Heleadethme]

4 hours ago, maryjayne said:

Jehovah Witnesses. All the elders said to him was he should pray for help with his temper. I was married to him for 11 years, and then I finally left him, taking my two small children with me, and left the JW's too,after he put me in hospital. I was disfellowshipped, and the police only cautioned him. The elders did nothing to him. Nothing.

I lost my whole family as they were JW's too.

sorry to derail the thread, but this is, I think, a valid example of when submitting to 'headship' has been perverted to something God didnt mean. This sort of situation can make women refuse to even think about accepting headship, and needs compassionate handling and reasoning gently, as my pastor did with me, to help me understand the headship I was under was not Bibilcal.

There is something evil about how women are negated and overlooked in "religious" circles, as if we are not thought to be human or worth troubling to notice our pain or confusion or whatever the case may be.  I've experienced it too...not the same circumstances as yours, but just as though I didn't matter at all, invisible.  I've come to recognize this phenomenon as an evil spirit.  Very much like the spirit in the world that tends to negate and overlook believers in much the same way.

I absolutely agree about compassionate handling......and as well we need to understand what submission and authority means.  Due to religiosity, far too much is being made out of it.  I don't find it easy to put into words and this might need some tweeking and input from others, but this is the best I could do to express the sense I have received in how it needs to be understood:

We need to understand submissiveness and authority for what it is....and not make too much out of it that God didn't intend.  Women are not the property or vassals of their husbands or church leadership.  It is not talking about abject blind obedience and men barking out orders.   And authority in the church and home is not dictatorship....it's simply taking the lead.  Submissiveness is a voluntary attitude of allowing one's husband or authority in church to take the lead, of placing oneself under that lead rather than overriding it or gainsaying it.  That's all it is.  In a 'don't be argumentative or disrespectful and defiant and hard-to-get-along with', kind of way (as long you aren't being led to sin or disobey the Lord, in which case we are to obey the Lord over man, as even Paul wrote and did).   But don't let our flesh get the better of us, or cause us to try and take the lead in matters that are not our purview.  It's not Godly, and not really natural, for women to be taking charge over men at home or in the church.  Men need to step up to the plate, and women need to let them and encourage and help them in their efforts to, respectfully from behind the scenes.   It's a learning process for all concerned, I'm sure.

Submission usually happens in a natural way whenever you have a group of any sort, certain persons are tacitly understood to be best qualified and taking the lead and the others tend to follow.  Religiosity makes too much of a big deal out of this......and it leads to everything from self-righteousness and priggishness on the one hand, to abuses and blatant error and evil on the other.   And it needs to be in context of two-way relationship.....if we have a serious disagreement with something that is being done, having some insight from the Lord....then offer (offer, don't order) our  best counsel to husband or those taking the lead at church.  That's why there is a body of believers with many parts, and that's why husband was given a help-mate.  Two heads are better than one, and all the parts and spiritual gifts are needed to watch each other's backs.  So...all in all this isn't what religiosity usually makes it out to be.  It should be the simplicity of Christ, the simplicity of the gospel, simplicity of real life, a living way......not religiosity which always perverts God's way.

 

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

15 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Speaking of spiritual authority....leadership and teaching with authority.  It's not in a sense of lording it over others as the world practices authority.

That is right sister .    Its n the spiritiual sense as our Lord walked .   Teaching truth and not mix .    And any leadership role in any church

should be well , well matured before even being considered for the part .   They must be very very well instructed in the bible and have had

all their senses well excercised to fully be able to determine even the smallest of leaven and correct it .

Their love must be a love that honors JESUS first , a love that truly desires the good of every one in that church .

He should put himself , his needs ,  below that of all in his church .   His concern should be for their welfare first above even his own .

I truly truly believe that .   He should do all for the sake of others ,  placing Christ first , doctrine as a absolute necessity .

He should live as DID our Lord and the apostles who gave wise instruction .

And our Lord and those apostels , DID not LIVE better than their flocks .    Jesus never ate better than they did .  He never wore better clothes ,

Had we seen HIM while he was on earth , You would never have heard any message that would have encouraged folks to desire money .

Nor the apostels either .    In fact the only few times paul would make mention of money ,   it was not to buy him a chariot so he could preach

the gospel ,    he did not say Church buy me a big ship so I can sail and not have to be on ships of men .

Paul asked for money , ONLY and I repeat ONLY for the sake of those poor persecuted ones who were lacking basic food and necessities .

The man Lorded nothing over the flock .    Peter neither , james neither .   we hear dire warnings about not heaping up from those men.

They did not say well if he is heaping it up for himself and making a fortune HE is blessed of GOD .

Never did they focus on money .    THEY focused ONLY on the poor and their needs ,  AND mainly ON THE GOSPLE and the furtherance of that gospel .

They did not cast the gospel or things that might offend aside for the sake of unity and world peace .

JESUS did not live with one stitch or one meal better than his own desciples .    IMAGINE that .  THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS TRULY WORTHY for all to serve HIM ,

INSTEAD HE SERVED THEM .     Now let the leaders and even the flocks GO and LEARN THAT and do likewise .

 

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

That is right sister .    Its n the spiritiual sense as our Lord walked .   Teaching truth and not mix .    And any leadership role in any church

should be well , well matured before even being considered for the part .   They must be very very well instructed in the bible and have had

all their senses well excercised to fully be able to determine even the smallest of leaven and correct it .

Their love must be a love that honors JESUS first , a love that truly desires the good of every one in that church .

He should put himself , his needs ,  below that of all in his church .   His concern should be for their welfare first above even his own .

I truly truly believe that .   He should do all for the sake of others ,  placing Christ first , doctrine as a absolute necessity .

He should live as DID our Lord and the apostles who gave wise instruction .

And our Lord and those apostels , DID not LIVE better than their flocks .    Jesus never ate better than they did .  He never wore better clothes ,

Had we seen HIM while he was on earth , You would never have heard any message that would have encouraged folks to desire money .

Nor the apostels either .    In fact the only few times paul would make mention of money ,   it was not to buy him a chariot so he could preach

the gospel ,    he did not say Church buy me a big ship so I can sail and not have to be on ships of men .

Paul asked for money , ONLY and I repeat ONLY for the sake of those poor persecuted ones who were lacking basic food and necessities .

The man Lorded nothing over the flock .    Peter neither , james neither .   we hear dire warnings about not heaping up from those men.

They did not say well if he is heaping it up for himself and making a fortune HE is blessed of GOD .

Never did they focus on money .    THEY focused ONLY on the poor and their needs ,  AND mainly ON THE GOSPLE and the furtherance of that gospel .

They did not cast the gospel or things that might offend aside for the sake of unity and world peace .

JESUS did not live with one stitch or one meal better than his own desciples .    IMAGINE that .  THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS TRULY WORTHY for all to serve HIM ,

INSTEAD HE SERVED THEM .     Now let the leaders and even the flocks GO and LEARN THAT and do likewise .

 

That's wonderful Godly truth, brother.....praise the Lord.

[Faithbuilders]

5 hours ago, Davida said:

Why is it that a Pastor is described as "husband of one wife"  not a "wife of one husband". 

Think about what they did back then, it was not uncommon for a man to have more than one wife. Not usually the case for a woman tho.

[frienduff thaylorde]

15 minutes ago, Faithbuilders said:

Think about what they did back then, it was not uncommon for a man to have more than one wife. Not usually the case for a woman tho.

partial truth .  Don't make it truth .    He said husband for a reason .   ONLY men can usurp authority over the church .

Women can prophesy and give all aide .     They just cant have authority over the man .    Lets love truth and cling to the pattern set by Christ and the early church .

They cannot be in any role of leadership that usurps any authority over the man .  THEY can teach women all day long .  They can offer counsel

to the man .     But they cannot be in authority over the man .

Faithbuilders ,    we grew up in an age where most have womens lib engrained .   Had we been born a hundred years ago

we would have seen an entirely different mindset in the churches .

It just keeps getting worse .    I want to encourage you .     You are loved .     NO pattern outside of what the early church ,  can or will prosper any church .

lets just rewind .  Go back to bibles , don't let the men of today fool us .   JUST start fresh .    OH what joy and peace in the LORD you will find .

And what beauty when folks just love GOD above everything .    OH the pure love of the LORD ,untained by men ,  just pure .

OH what wonderous taste and upmost beauty it has .  OH what rejoicing of the soul .    

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by frienduff thaylorde

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

That's wonderful Godly truth, brother.....praise the Lord.

Sister , you better believe it .    OH YES .     WE know we are not better than or above our LORD .    HOW he walked is pure and wonderous joy unto those who bythe SPIRIT do walk and obey .

Sister .    quite honestly it don't matter if all of ROME and the Vatican , all the protestants who are gathering under her and the world , marched against ya .

I would be SHOUTING WITH JOY ,  THATS MY SISTER and I LOVE HER .    THOSE WHO LOVE TRUTH , what  a pure oil of peace does run amongst them .

You loved sister .    

[Faithbuilders]

14 hours ago, Butero said:

Still, the chief authority in the church is the Bishop, and they must be a man

I don't agree; even in the O.T. there was a female prophetess, and judge of Israel. I have no issues with a female pastor, as long as she is 100% submissive to her husband.

[Faithbuilders]

15 hours ago, Davida said:

I know it's a hard teaching but... There was a reason the Lord used Paul and I don't think those scriptures can be waved off. Paul referred to the garden of eden and Eve was deceived and she negatively influenced Adam and he sinned against God.  

That is the reason she need to first be submissive to her own husband - before she can have authority in anything else.

[Faithbuilders]

16 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

partial truth .  Don't make it truth .    He said husband for a reason .   ONLY men can usurp authority over the church .

Women can prophesy and give all aide .     They just cant have authority over the man .    Lets love truth and cling to the pattern set by Christ and the early church .

They cannot be in any role of leadership that usurps any authority over the man .  THEY can teach women all day long .  They can offer counsel

to the man .     But they cannot be in authority over the man .

Faithbuilders ,    we grew up in an age where most have womens lib engrained .   Had we been born a hundred years ago

we would have seen an entirely different mindset in the churches .

It just keeps getting worse .    I want to encourage you .     You are loved .     NO pattern outside of what the early church ,  can or will prosper any church .

lets just rewind .  Go back to bibles , don't let the men of today fool us .   JUST start fresh .    OH what joy and peace in the LORD you will find .

And what beauty when folks just love GOD above everything .    OH the pure love of the LORD ,untained by men ,  just pure .

OH what wonderous taste and upmost beauty it has .  OH what rejoicing of the soul .    

 

I agree woman's lib has done a lot of damage, one of the worst things to ever happen to our nations is the sufferjet movement; not because woman should not have rights, but because it was born out of rebellion. But, that does not change the truth;  if a wife is submissive to her own husband - not every man - then, and ONLY then, can she have a place of authority! Even in the church!

[Faithbuilders]

2 minutes ago, Davida said:

You ignored that the Bible says , husband of one wife, not wife of one man. 

No, I answered it - you just made it say something it does not. It IS talking about a man having more that one wife at the same time! nothing more, nothing less.