I am the vine, ye are the branches:

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, discipler777 said:

Apology accepted. ....... Please stop calling me a troll. 

That is why I made such a significant apology. Seems like we are backtracking here. 

Do you want me to keep on apologizing? 

So I apologize for calling you a troll.  

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, discipler777 said:

It is quite common sense that people should not break the law, eg not commit murder, rape, robbery, cheating, perjury, etc.

Yes. It is common to atheists as well due to God pouring out his moral laws on all flesh in the form of a conscience. But what is common does not have anything to do with how one enters into a relationship with a all-good holy being as a partially-good not holy at all being. The answer will be quite rare, and our intuitions will not even come close to the response we find from the NT New Covenant authors. That is to say the message of grace is a scandal to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius

[Uber Genius]

In Galatians 3, Paul is giving us a litany of premises in support of continuing to grow in Christ by faith and the power of the Spirit. He sees no role for the OT Law. In fact he highlights the topic of his discussion in Gal. 3 with,

"After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

and

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" 

Here he contrasts "Spirit" with the Law 

It is the title of his work in Chap. 3 

Alternatively it could be titled more provocatively, "Only Fools Continue Their Christianity by The Works of the OT LAW!"

Or "Does anyone finish their Christian Journey by the Law? Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

Will live is 

So I see this as a text that has to be spurious (Not in the original text of scripture) if you are to make your case that the Christian must live by the Law in order to be Spirit Led. 

ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται is future indicative 

"the righteous will continue to live by faith" is one way of capturing this idea in English.  There is no option to replace an antonym "The Law" for faith. 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, SelahSong said:

Greetings! 

I’d like us all to consider the whole gospel of salvation, God’s entire plan for His children. There is no need to fear losing your salvation, if you know how much God loves you, how merciful of a God we serve, and how we are not saved by works but by grace.  But are we living a worldly lifestyle? Let's reason this out a bit.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  John 10:27-28

In regards to somebody plucking us out of the Father’s hand, this is referring, I believe, to those who would attempt to remove us from the His hand.  No man can take eternal life away from us, regardless how hard they try. ...Just as no man can force us to sin, but we, by our own choice, can fall into sin.  In John 15, we are told to abide (remain) in Jesus, and when we do, we will produce much fruit.  If we do not abide in Jesus, and therefore fail to bear fruit, then we can be removed from the vine (Jesus) and thrown into the fire to be burned.

Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit… If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  John 15:2,6

Romans 8:38-39 tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Again, this is speaking of outside influences.  While nobody else can separate us from God’s love, we ourselves can depart from the love relationship that God desires with us.

 

Selah

SISTER YOU LOVED .    Keep on encouraging with those wonderous reminders .  

[discipler777]

12 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

13 hours ago, discipler777 said:

Apology accepted. ....... Please stop calling me a troll. 

That is why I made such a significant apology. Seems like we are backtracking here. 

Do you want me to keep on apologizing? 

So I apologize for calling you a troll.  

 

11 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

In Galatians 3, Paul is giving us a litany of premises in support of continuing to grow in Christ by faith and the power of the Spirit. He sees no role for the OT Law. In fact he highlights the topic of his discussion in Gal. 3 with,

"After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

and ....

Looks like you are backtracking here, .......

.

  On 12/14/2018 at 2:01 AM, Uber Genius said:

  11 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Galatians 3:1-3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. ² Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? ³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by^[a] the flesh?

 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear. The passages above are about Christians who are not producing good works who nevertheless are saved from damnation and about those who try and live based on good works after they are saved. They need to be dealt with in order to make your view cogent. In fact not just cogent but Christian. This is an essential doctrine. Paul was infuriated by "Saved by grace, sanctified by works." This passage receives some of the strongest language anywhere in Paul's epistles. 

.

GALATIANS.5:1-6 & 13-15 & 19-21 (NKJV) = Christian Liberty

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. ...

 

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! ...

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

.

ACTS.15:23-29 = 23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

.

Like I said before, Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law.

The events of ACTS.15 was the background for Paul's vehemence at GAL.3 & 5 against the requirement for new Gentile Christians(GC) to be circumcised, eat only kosher foods and keep other burdensome or non-essential laws of God in order to be accepted as Christians in the Church because the Law does not save. But Paul did not say that GC could use their liberty from the Law wrt salvation, to go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly. ACTS.15:29 confirms his statement at GAL.5:13, ie he agreed at the Jerusalem Council that new GC were still required to keep 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, foods/things offered to idols, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality, in order for them to do well(= not be unwell), and not in order to be saved.

To continue to do well, the new GC should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws, especially moral laws, eg the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17. Otherwise, they would be cursed by God with a sad, non-peaceful, terror-filled and short life on earth for breaking His non-burdensome or essential laws, even though they may still be saved as long as they still have faith in Jesus Christ, ie not lose faith(JOB.2:9), not depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1), not deny the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), etc.

What was not covered by ACTS.15 is the further question, what if GC do go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly for whatever reasons.? This was covered by many Scripture - GALATIANS.5:19-21 above, MATTHEW.7:15-23, JOHN.14:15-24 & 15:1-9(= Christ not abiding in unrepentant sinners), REVELATION.22:12-17, 1CORINTHIANS,6:9-11, etc = they will likely not inherit the kingdom of God/heaven, on top of having to suffer for their unrepented willful sins or works of the flesh. God is not mocked.

.

[UnprofitableServantJames]

I find it interesting that the idea that what Jesus said about abiding in the vine can be considered 'heresy' if we take it literally by obeying what Jesus said to do in order to stay on the vine. It sounds like the idea would be that we 'shouldn't' obey Jesus because that would be considered heresy by Luther and other reformations. Does that sound accurate? The question that comes to my mind is, who should we listen to? Jesus or Luther? Jesus or other reformations? While I'm at it, Jesus or Paul?

What does Jesus say in John 5:38-40?

Food for thought.

In peace

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Paul said we are to follow him (Paul) as he follows Christ....Jesus told him to tell us that

[UnprofitableServantJames]

Just now, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Paul said we are to follow him (Paul) as he follows Christ....Jesus told him to tell us that

Firstly, was Paul perfect in all that He said and did? Secondly, is everything that Paul wrote inspired by God? In 1Corinthans 7:25 Paul says,"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." Here Paul is saying, what I am about to say is not from God, but my personal opinion. If he did this in writing, wouldn't it be safe to assume that he did this in person? If so, then couldn't we also think that Paul was fallible and made mistakes during His ministry? If not, then Paul was perfect and everything he said and did was perfect. Is that what you believe?

I have no problem to follow someone 'as they follow JESUS', but I think the issue arises when we say that the person we are following 'takes precedents' to the person they are following (i.e., Paul following Jesus). If it appears in scripture that Paul contradicts Jesus, then I will go with Jesus 100% of the time.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Saying to “ follow me as  I follow Chris” is a HUMONGOUS order. I don’t believe Paul would have the nerve or the stupidity to make such a demand unless Jesus told him to say it.If this were merely his opinion, I think something of such magnitude would be stated with that caveat.If Paul ever contradicted Jesus—- I can’t remember seeing it.I don’t think it is possible

[UnprofitableServantJames]

I am not to sure of that. Even people today can be seen as examples of following Christ, so I don't think it can be to far fetched to think that someone who follows someone else's example, because, they are following Christ is wrong. My main point is we are not called to be followers of Paul or any other human. We are called to be followers of Jesus. Amen?

 

Nevertheless, I agree, Paul doesn't contradict Jesus. Therefore, if Jesus says that in order to abide in His vine, then we have to 'keep His commandments', then that is what we must do. Amen?