Who is the Whore of babylon

[other one]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am not. I had to look them up. Why would you ask?

look up Jack Parsons and the whore of Babylon....   the story is way too long to put in a thread...   if you have a few bucks to spare you might go to SkywatchTV and spend $15 to buy the streaming version of "Belly of the Beast"   some very interesting information about the people who founded the US government and why and where it's going...

 

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Go back and read my earlier post just after the post you called a book and you will see positive proof of who it is that's rambling, the evidence that you have no idea of what you are talking about. You talk about teaching truth, but you have two different and opposite truths, which is impossible. One of your truth claim that the gospel don't go fort to sometime in the future when the white horse begins its ride which you claim is in the future, denying that the gospel has already done out into the world. What kind of truth is that? In another one of your truths, on one day you claim that the horsemen represents keeping the gospel from going fort, the very next day you say the white horse represent the gospel going out into the world, just two of your opposite truths.

Because you say its truth doesn't make it truth, remember what you stated here, your very last words. "We all will be held accountable. So which one of those opposite truths you presents will you be held accountable for? Is your truth that the gospel has not gone out into the world yet or is it your truth that the white  horse represent the gospel going out into the world, which according to you the white horse hasn't even begin its ride yet, you must be held accountable for one of your truths here. Both of your truths can't be the truth. As far as other people joining it the conversation no one is stopping them from joining, but it seem as if you are calling for back-up. You and I are in a conversation don't worry about other people's action, you seem to have this problem of trying to determine what other people do. You are calling for help from your other pre tribers. They will step in when they decides to, considerate on what we are doing here, you can't speak for everyone else. How can you be so sure that they are not coming to your aid because of something I've done and not because they see the confusion in you and don't want to be a part of. 

I'm way past Paul and all that other stuff you have there we are now here to identify who the whore of Babylon is, the whore of Babylon would be working in anyone who has two opposite truths that contradict each other. 

If you are through rambling, can we talk about the rapture? I would like to know where YOU think the rapture is. I am sure by now that you do NOT subscribe to pretrib. Are you prewrath? Mid trib? Post trib? Can you show us what you believe and back it up with scripture?

Now, once again I will set the record straight.

Seal 1 is to represent THE CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. It was opened in 32 AD.  It is still continuing.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These seals too were opened in 32 AD - as soon as Jesus ascended.  These 3 were restricted in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth.

[nobleseed]

ww2 affected the jews more then anyone, so,s the current drought , watch a doco sometime

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Royff said:

Are we really brothers in Christ? We maybe and we may not be because all I see form you is exaltation of Rome. You say I’m defensive, go back and read some of the stuff you wrote, go back and read your first post in this conversation, you came out talking all kinds of trash and I could see the anger in your post, now you want to try to take the high ground. It's only when your argument breaks down that’s when you want to play nice nice and pretend that it's me who is not playing nice.

This is not a game but about winning souls for Christ, this is one of the things that is destroying the church. When they are being exposed for false teaching and they know it's happening the first thing they try to do is that God wants us to love each other, and that’s truth, but that love comes at the expanse of the truth. What you are trying to do is to take the attention off yourself and place it on me. But it's not going to work because I’ve seen this game too many times before.

So what you are saying to me is to soften up and all the while you dig at me and many Christians falls for this game. If you are that turned off about what I say, then stop responding to what I write, but don’t try to play that old game with me, what you call defensive is me exposing your false doctrine Please explain what you mean by defensive and I bet I can show you the same actions in your post. Take your own advice!

You keep accusing me of many things - like false doctrine.  Pick ONE such "false doctrine" and point out why it is false with scripture. Can you do that?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, SelahSong said:

The "rapture" in 1 Thessalonians 4 is the Second Coming.

The last trump is the 7th trump. 

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Indeed, the 7th trump in Revelation is the least OF THAT SERIES. However, Paul's last trump is the last of an entirely different series of trumps. Indeed, it will be the last trumpet of the church age, for the moment after the rapture, the church age ends.

Do you know what REALLY happens at the 7th trumpet? It is simple but powerful: Satan loses the kingdoms of the world as they are turned over to Jesus Christ. God finally gets His planet back. Sorry, there is no coming of any kind found there - unless someone ad libs. 

The rapture in 1 thes. IS INDEED His second coming, but His coming as shown in Rev. 19 will be His THIRD (3rd) coming. His third coming will be over 7 years after His second coming.  His 2nd coming will be FOR His saints, while His 3rd coming will WITH His saints. 

This can all be backed up by Paul's telling us when in 1 thes. 5. It will be a moment before the Day of the Lord begins. It will be a moment before God's wrath begins. In Revelation there can be only ONE PLACE Paul's rapture fits: just before the 6th seal. The "trib" or 70th week will begin at the 7th seal.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Royff said:

“Paul says we will all be caught up to be with the Lord, one does not proceed the other, all areraptures at the same time no one before the other, so Paul destroys your theory that there was an earlier rapture of some of the saints.”

What are you talking about? I never said there was an earlier rapture, I’m here to state that there was no earlier rapture, I’m here to denounce the teaching of an earlier or pre tribulation rapture, you are confused. What are you talking about? Since we started this conversation it's been you who claim that there is an earlier, what you call the pre tribulation rapture.

I’ve been saying all along that there is only one rapture, you got me confused with someone else. And the confusion continues!

What you wrote is in blue. It is hard for you to deny it, for it is right in front of you. You said all will be caught up to be with the Lord, one does not precede another. Yet, what Paul wrote is that the dead rise FIRST. 

I guess what you were trying to say is, there is no rapture before the week, ONLY a rapture at the end of the week. Is that what you are trying to say?

Question: do you believe the Old Testament saints will be raptured with the church? If so, show us a verse. 

Do you believe the 144,000 will be raptured with the church?

Do you believe those that get beheaded will be raptured with the church? 

I have an idea: lets just believe what the bible says: Paul tells us the rapture will include ONLY those that are in Christ. Therefore the Old Testament saints CANNOT be included. Therefore their rapture  / resurrection must come at a different time.  

John saw the 144,000 in heaven in chapter 14, LONG before chapter 19 when Christ returns. Therefore according to your timing, the 144,000 cannot be included in the rapture of the church.

Question: How will YOU get to the marriage and supper? It will be in heaven.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Royff said:

 

“You are confused again! It seems to be a pattern. The 4th seal comes BEFORE the 5th seal martyrs. I think you don't understand: the first seal is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world.”

That statement of your is on page 21 or 22  somewhere in there. I cut and pasted your statement so it's verbatim.

This is what you said, the first seal which is the white horse, which according to you has yet to ride if that’s the case then the gospel has not gone out into the world yet because, according to you the white horse has yet to begin it ride.  That is the foundation on which you base your pre tribulation rapture theory.

But instead of addressing this you claim you did not say it. So if the church has already taking the gospel to the world then the white horse has already begun its ride, you can’t have it both ways either its future or its already happen.

This white horse and the timing of it is tripping you up, so you made two contradictory statements, there’s the proof. The gospel has been already preach to the entire inhabited earth, the church is already doing this now. Your problem is that you can’t admit that the killing of Christians in Rome was great tribulation because it conflicts with the timing of your rapture theory.

When it's convenient to your cause you claim to know the timing of things, but when it destroys your argument  you claim that we don’t know God’s timing and that God’s timing is not our timing. So you are always contradicting yourself.

You claim that God was not warning the church that was then about to be set afire and beheaded of the things that’s about to happen to them but only talked to this end time church, this is amazing to me how you could think such a thing about the Lord. That’s where your whole problem is and it affect everything you say after that. To me you really believe God loves this generation more then love those who laid down their lives for the kingdom.

No warning to them, no promise of the crown of life, nothing, just go in there and get your head chopped off and we will act as if nothing that terrible really happened because I have more important followers  to attend to. To me this is what you are saying. Its is there, at the beginning, the place that you said if we get that wrong every else is wrong is where you makes your mistake. Do you really believe that God did not warn his people of the things to come in Rome? You just can’t square that with scripture.

So in order to advance your false doctrine you play down the evil works of Rome, the rider of the white horse. You know good and well that was great tribulation. But that's where your problem is who and what is the white horse. the only way you can promote your false theory is to deny bible prophecy in doing that you deny the fulfilled prophecy of the Lord . 

Why do you write falsehoods? I have never said the white horse is yet to ride. I have always said the first seal was opened in 32 AD as the church sent out.  If I said he is yet to ride, why didn't you copy and paste that part? It is easy: I never said it. You like to make things up.  Please, if you wish to tell what I said, copy and paste so you get it right!

Get this straight! My timing of the rapture comes straight from 1 Thes. 5 where Paul tells us WHEN. Don't take my word for it, go read it. It has NOTHING to do with when the first seal was opened! How do you get such ideas? Paul tells us the rapture of the church will come a moment before the wrath of God: a moment after the dead in Christ rise, two groups of people get two different results: those IN CHRIST will be raptured, but those living in sin will be left behind, to face the sudden destruction. Paul tells us that sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. Therefore the ONLY place in Revelation we can fit the rapture is a moment before the 6th seal. Just so you know, that is in chapter 6. Jesus does not return to Armageddon until chapter 19! Your rapture theory is 13 chapters off! Those 13 chapters cover over 7 years.

Please, get this right: I will write it once again: the first seal was opened in 32 AD to represent the church with the gospel. Hopefully now you will stop accusing me. Do you have it now? As soon as Jesus ascended into the throne room, He got the book and began opening the seals. That comes right out of Rev. 5.

you made two contradictory statements, there’s the proof  So copy and past BOTH so we know.  Don't copy one and claim I wrote the other. I think you are making this up.

you can’t admit that the killing of Christians in Rome was great tribulation because it conflicts with the timing of your rapture theory.  I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth I did not say or did not write. "Tribulation" has always been with the church. Sometimes it is GREAT tribulation. Jesus said the world hated Him so the world will hate the church. However, tribulation then and all along church history is no proof at all that "THE tribulation" or THE 70th week is not future.    Jesus told us that there will be the abomination of desolation and right after that, days of GREAT tribulation. You imagine that is history. It cannot be history. None of the trumpet judgments have come. None of the vials have been poured out. If you disagree, I challenge to you prove they have come, by showing us the dates of each trumpet judgment. If they are history, that should be no problem.

When it's convenient to your cause you claim to know the timing of things, but when it destroys your argument  you claim that we don’t know God’s timing and that God’s timing is not our timing. So you are always contradicting yourself.   This is nothing but Myth. Be careful you don't perjure yourself.  You have yet to prove even ONE (1) contradiction. In fact, you have yet to prove ANYTHING.

To me you really believe God loves this generation more then love those who laid down their lives for the kingdom.  My friend, there is only ONE RAPTURE! It is at the END of the church age, not at the beginning! God never promised to rapture people the moment tribulation starts. If you think differently, you will have to take that up with God, not me.  

No warning to them, no promise of the crown of life, nothing, just go in there and get your head chopped off  As far as I know, Paul was the only apostle of Jesus in the early church that was beheaded. What period of time are you talking about? If you are talking about Rev. 13 and the Beast - sorry, but that is FUTURE. 

DID God warn His people? Have you read Matthew 24? Have you read Luke 21?

So in order to advance your false doctrine you play down the evil works of Rome, the rider of the white horse. That is your theory and it is WRONG. You should look up John's use of the color white in Revelation. You will find he used it 17 times - 16 of those to represent righteousness. What? Do you imagine that Rome was righteous? You make me laugh!  You imagine God would use the color what 16 times for righteousness and once for evil. NEVER! 

You know good and well that was great tribulation.   In case you missed it, John used those two words in Rev. 2: He promised great tribulation way back in His day for those sinners in Thyatira. I don't think His plan was to keep them alive for 2000 years for the days of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of that is still future to us. Then again, John used "great tribulation" in Rev. 7 for the raptured church - that crowd too large to number. Again he was NOT talking about the days of GT Jesus spoke of.  Just so you know, it was GREAT GREAT GREAT tribulation in 70 AD when people were eating their babies. But STILL that is not the days Jesus was speaking of. He was quoting Daniel about the 70th week that is future.

Look, it is not my fault you don't know what the 1st seal is to represent. Perhaps you should read the commentators. 

[iamlamad]

16 minutes ago, Royff said:

The bible says the dead "IN CHRIST" shall rise first, meaning that the unsaved rises at a later time,  but he then say that all shall meet the Lord in the air the resurrected and those who did not be killed by the Antichrist. This verse of scripture proves that all christian was not rapture if they are still in the earth awaiting their transformation. Why did you cut that verse of scripture short and the impression they the Lord was talking about all the dead. there is some deception in what you did here.  You just said the dead rise first, you seems to be trying to give the impression that they rise to heaven first when this simply means that the unsaved rise from the dead too be judged at a later time and only those in Christ rises at this time. 

The rest of the stuff you put up there doesn't matter because you have been caught again in the game of deception.

 

You seem to have a very low opinion of me. That is OK, for I have Rhinoceros skin. Say what you will, if you write myth, I will correct it. You have accused me of many things here, but have proved nothing. Why not pick ONE SENTENCE  I have written and post scripture to refute it? If I am so wrong, that should be easy - yet you have made many posts and have not accomplished it yet. 

Why don't you try really READING my posts instead of looking for something more to accuse me of?  If you read closely, you could learn something.

What I said was, the dead in Christ rise FIRST. That is a timing word. Then I quoted "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up" and showed that "THEN" was a timing word, PROVING all will not rise at the same time. However, after we are all up in the air, then TOGETHER we rise up to meet Jesus. 

I am beginning to think, whenever you read something you disagree with, I am trying to deceive you. No, I am trying to get you to see the TRUTH. It is a lost effort.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Royff said:

Of course you would like for me to not write as much because it takes you out of your natural element of cut and paste and trying to explain everything with one paragraph or one sentence. What you want to do is go around in that circle of cut and paste, what you are doing is called spiritual laziness. You say that John talked about the white horse 17 times, but not one times did you take the time to go in detail about either one of them. There are two white horses in Revelation one represents Christ the other does not.

If the spirit of the Lord was in what you are doing it would give you utterance, He promised to do that. Then you wouldn’t see what I’m doing as writing a book, but trying the spirit by the spirit, you can’t do this with three word explanations. If you call what I post a book, then you haven’t read many books. Don’t you see how limited you are to not be able to communicate in three paragraphs or more.  You are not going to control my actions because of your limitations. So do you really think you have rebutted everything I said with that pitiful response?

All four horses of the apocalypse are evil and causes tribulation and death, nowhere in the description of the first white horse is there any mention of this horse being anything but a warring king, never as anything holy. Now besides being a war horse the first white horse does represents religion, but is not the religion of Christ but of Babylon.  You claim that it represents the gospel going fort or the advancement of the gospel. So according to you and your theory, since the time of Christ the gospel never when fort, it must wait to go fort until the white horse began its ride which you claim is in the future.

So according to your theory the gospel has never gone fort in the past two thousand years. So if it was the gospel going fort then it must have gone fort two thousand years ago,it must have happened shortly after the Lord gave the vision to John because that’s when the gospel went fort, if that’s not the case, what did the disciple die for, what did Huss get burned alive for, if it is  not for the gospel to go fort? Do you see what just happened here, you stepped on your own massage. That’s why you don’t want me to write as much because the more I write the more you are exposed as a charlatan.

You have no business trying to teach others the word of God when all you do is confuse yourself. So according to you we must wait until sometime in the future for the gospel to be spread around the world, nothing you are saying makes any sense. You are blind to the gospel of Christ, is not the gospel going fort in these forums. Is not the gospel going fort when Evangelicals travel around the world bringing gospel to the unsaved?

Don’t you see that you are leading Christians to the worship of the whore of Babylon? That first white horse is the whore of Babylon; Rome! Anyone who listens and believe what you preach needs a checkup from the neck up. You destroy the word of God, like everyone else who try to prove this false teaching. Since you can’t find this teaching in the word of God you must twist the word of God to make it fit, twisting the word of God to your own destruction and lead others to that same destruction by exalting the whore of Babylon [Rome] calling good evil and good evil, do you know what that borders on; blaspheme!

Keep talking, the more you talk the more God is using you to expose yourself to the world as a false prophet. Of course you would like for me to not write as must because it exposes you to the world. Just yesterday you stated that the horsemen represents keeping the gospel from going fort, now today you say the white horse represents the gospel going fort or advancing. Which is it it can’t be both, if you would stick to truth then you would not be in this pickle which leads to darkness. You are displaying that darkness here in this forum, stop your fear mongering and destroying Christians who are weak in faith.

This is my prayer to the throne that I have direct access to; Lord if I must be here to face the Antichrist please give me the courage to stand because I can’t face this beast alone, it would destroy me. Give me the courage to stand and not run and hide because in your word you say that no coward shall enter your kingdom. Please don’t allow fear to drive me into the arms of the whore of Babylon.

 

I’m cutting this short because I don’t want to confuse you more then you are, if that’s even possible.

You say that John talked about the white horse 17 times, but not one times did you take the time to go in detail about either one of them.  No, you err yet again! I said John used the color WHITE 17 times. Did you take the time to look up even one? No, of course not, for you only want to argue. I get that. Why should I do your study for you? You speak of laziness, yet I will guess you did not look up ONE of the 17 times John used the color white. And you want to blame ME?

There are two white horses in Revelation one represents Christ the other does not.  WOW! Hallelujah! You have finally written the truth! It has taken you what - 10 posts? 15 posts?  Yes, the white horse in Rev. 19 is the white horse carrying Jesus. The white horse of seal 1 is the gospel being sent out.  BOTH are righteous and deserve the color white. 

All four horses of the apocalypse are evil  Ok, so back this up with SOMETHING! Show us just ONE WORD in the first seal's description that tells you this. Good luck for no one has ever been able to produce one word that even hints at evil. And you are ignoring the color white again. 

nowhere in the description of the first white horse is there any mention of this horse being anything but a warring king, never as anything holy  When the gospel was sent out, for example with Paul, was there any "overcoming" that Paul had to do? (The Greek word behind "conquer" there was translated MANY MORE times as overcoming. Did Paul have to overcome? How about being stoned? How about receiving 39 lashes several times? How about ship wrecks? We have to go by what is written - not imagination! OF COURSE the church had to conquer the principalities and powers to advance the gospel. 

That first white horse is the whore of Babylon  Sorry but you are only showing us how little you know. The "whore of Babylon" IN CONTEXT is only in the last 3 1/2 years of the FUTURE 70th week. But since you don't believe in the future, of course your theory is wrong. Then John told us it is "that great city." He was NOT referring to Rome.  The Beast and False prophet are not going to camp out in Rome; they are coming to Jerusalem.

Oh! Congratulations! You know who John (Jan) Huss was! 

You have no business trying to teach others the word of God when all you do is confuse yourself.  You have such a low opinion of me! All I have done is point out where you are in error. You rave on and on about something you made up that you imagined I said. You amaze me! 

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Royff said:

You said these horses are in the tribulation period and we are not in tribulation yet, if we are not in the tribulation yet then the horses has not rode yet. Now if you are now setting the white horse in 32 AD. then you proves my point that the tribulation begun back then  when the first horse of the apocalypse rode out. So either way you’ve got a whole lot of explaining to do. So when does the white horse began its ride?

Why do you keep misquoting me? The first five seals were opened way back in 32 AD. I have said this over and over. We are no in the 70th week yet. I know, many people wish to call this 7 years "the tribulation." I call it the 70th week. It is FUTURE. But all through the church age, there has been "tribulation." 

It makes no difference if you don't believe in a future 70th week. It is coming anyway! Your disbelief will not stop it from coming. It is only your imagination that these horses cause "tribulation." That means pressure. No, the second horse causes war, the s=third horse causes hunger and the fourth horse causes death by pestilence. If you wish to call those things "tribulation," that is on you. John did not. 

Did you not read John in Rev 1 when he wrote, I JOHN IN THE TRIBULATION? It was tribulation while John was alive. AGain, this does not DISPROVE that the future 70th week will bring MORE tribulation and GREAT tribulation. 

For the umpteenth time, seal one was opened around 32 AD. But don't take my word for it, go back and read chapter 5. John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Jesus then got the book, and began immediately opening the seals.