Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Are church age martyrs not strong proof that the church age is still ongoing?  God is waiting for that final one. He knows the number. Have we arrived at the 6th seal yet? This is why I say the church is waiting between the 5th and 6th seal. 

Since the 70th week is for Daniel's people, and not the church, we should not expect the church to be listed from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - the 70th week chapters.  My point is this: if we asked a hundred beginning readers  - even kids that know about the rapture - to read John 4:1 & 2, would ANY of them say "that is the rapture?" I doubt it very seriously!  Because the church world did not recognize the great crowd too large to number as the raptured church, they were desperate to find the rapture in the early chapters of Revelation. John being called up was all they could find, so it became church doctrine! 

What time is in in John's narrative at the end of chapter 5? That is the question.  John has drawn pictures for us with words in chapters 4 & 5 that tell us the mind of Christ as far as timing.  I was frustrated after Jesus had asked me the three questions on these two chapters, plus he said it shows timing and the movement of time. I had 5 questions and I could answer none of them. I studied hard for hours a day for weeks  - until the day God sent me to chapter 12 so I could answer His questions on chapters 4 & 5! All I needed was "history lesson" on my mind. 

You are still looking at the entirety of Revelation in a linear fashion. Wheee does Revelation 12:5 fit in that?  Is the Messiah born and caught up after the church age up to, as you state, chapter 8?

[OldCoot]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think that when the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus, that is a very strong hint of the millennial change - right there at the 7th trumpet. Adam's 6000 year lease will have ended, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to the world - so he is cast down and the world given to Jesus Christ. However, God will have some cleaning up to do!

On earth, yes, but the millennial reign could indeed start prior to that.  Messiah is not corronated on earth as King, He arrives as King.  So that would imply the coronation occurred previous.  So the millennial period could begin at the start of the 7 years.

the David / Absolom event sheds some light.  While Absolom is creating havoc, David is King but is in Hebron, which is Hevron or heaven in Hebrew.   And how long? For 7 years.  When Absolom (Av Shalom - Father of peace / false father of peace) is killed, how does that happen?  He is caught by his hair in a branch and is slain.  His hair was Absolom’s pride.  The Antichrist will be caught via his pride by the Branch of David, the Messiah.  Both of these events at the end of 7 years.

cool stuff when one sits back and takes notice.  This is why Yeshua said that all the scripture is about Him.  

[OldCoot]

My spell checker played games with me. In my last It says Hebron.  Should be Chevron

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

You are still looking at the entirety of Revelation in a linear fashion. Wheee does Revelation 12:5 fit in that?  Is the Messiah born and caught up after the church age up to, as you state, chapter 8?

Of course I am, because Revelation IS linear. Perhaps you missed it before, but verses 1-5 in Rev. 12 are a parenthesis having nothing to do with John's chronology. I can tell you what Jesus said to me:

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon and in particular, what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." (I counted 32 as He waited.) "I CHOSE to show John what the Dragon did when I was a young child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John." (He sent me to chapter 12 to get "history lesson" in my thinking.)

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

My spell checker played games with me. In my last It says Hebron.  Should be Chevron

Ha ha! Both are real words!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

On earth, yes, but the millennial reign could indeed start prior to that.  Messiah is not corronated on earth as King, He arrives as King.  So that would imply the coronation occurred previous.  So the millennial period could begin at the start of the 7 years.

the David / Absolom event sheds some light.  While Absolom is creating havoc, David is King but is in Hebron, which is Hevron or heaven in Hebrew.   And how long? For 7 years.  When Absolom (Av Shalom - Father of peace / false father of peace) is killed, how does that happen?  He is caught by his hair in a branch and is slain.  His hair was Absolom’s pride.  The Antichrist will be caught via his pride by the Branch of David, the Messiah.  Both of these events at the end of 7 years.

cool stuff when one sits back and takes notice.  This is why Yeshua said that all the scripture is about Him.  

It is just possible that the millennial reign has nothing to do with David and Absolom!  Have you ever asked yourself why it is at the 7th trumpet that Satan loses and Jesus gains? What changed but time?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It is just possible that the millennial reign has nothing to do with David and Absolom!  Have you ever asked yourself why it is at the 7th trumpet that Satan loses and Jesus gains? What changed but time?

I might not have stated things quite right.  The allusion of David and Absolom is to the Messiah and Antichrist and the 7 years of the Tribulation.   The D&A episode was also 7 years.   But David was King even though Absolom was running things.  David was in Chevron with those that had aligned with him. He was coronated king in Chevron and ruled from there and later in Jerusalem after Absolom was killed. The allusion is Yeshua is King in Heaven with those that have aligned with Him for the 7 years of the Tribulation likewise.  And just as Absolom was the false King and was caught in his pride by the tree branch, the false Messiah will be caught in his pride by the Branch, the true Messiah.   And that occurs also after 7 years.   And just as David was the rightful king and reigning from Chevron till Absolom was overtaken,  so Yeshua is reigning from Heaven until the overthrow of the Antichrist.   That is why it is possible that the millennial reign could actually start at the same time as the GT period.  It is known also as the Day of the Lord, which can be equated to the 7th 1000 years.

Edited February 27, 2019 by OldCoot

[Spock]

On 1/25/2019 at 2:58 PM, JoeCanada said:

•       Why Pretrib Logic Fails Miserably on the Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy          by Alan E. Kurschner

Here is the pretrib logic:

Pretribs reason that since the Seventy-Weeks prophecy in Daniel  9:24–27 was given to Israel,the Church cannot “exist” on earth during any of its fulfillment.

Here is why this common pretrib argument fails:

First, pretribs such as Crone would have to deny that the Church exists during the New Covenant fulfillment, since Jeremiah prophesied specifically to “the people of Israel and Judah.” (See Jeremiah 31:31–34). I am sure that Billy Crone would admit that he is a New Covenantbeliever.

Pretribs cannot have their cake and eat it too. This obvious logical inconsistency seems to escape their minds.

The New Covenant was not made with the Church, but the Church is governed under this covenant as the New Testament teaches that the New Covenant was extended to the Gentiles. We have to look to the New Testament for its progressive revelation to learn these matters.

Why can the New Covenant that was made to Israel be applied additionally to Gentiles, but the 70 weeks prophecy made to Israel cannot also include God working with the Church at the same time?

We are never told.

Billy Crone and other pretribs are myopic and do not allow the New Testament progressive revelation to give us more information about the particulars of the 70th week of Daniel.

Many more examples could be given from the Old Testament. Here is another one:

Peter in Acts 2:16-21 is citing from a prophecy from Joel that was given to Israel and applying it also to the new Church situation. You cannot have a more explicit OT prophecy made to Israel while also including an application of its fulfillment to the Church.

Second, pretrib logic on this issue simply does not follow. It makes a category error by confusing what with when.

They argue that since the Church did not exist during the first 69 sets of seven years (483 years), therefore the Church cannot be there for the last seven years. That is a non sequitur. It fails logically.

The fact that the Church did not exist at the time of the first part of this prophecy (69 sets of seven years, 483 years), who is to say that God is not going to work with both the Church and Israel during the last part of this prophecy? The Church does exist now. So logically it can be here for the last seven years.

When you allow for New Testament progressive revelation, you can learn more than what the Old Testament reveals. Imagine that!

And just to clarify these prophecies to Israel are not being replaced by the Church. The New Testament is simply telling us that God is expanding his redemptive program to the Gentiles, while he keeps his promises to Israel.

The Danielic passage is addressing Israel. Pretribs is trying to say more than it does by making it say that no other redemptive group can exist at that time.

Third, God has worked with both Israel and the Church at the same time in the past and he does in the present.

In the past:

Jesus made a prophecy to Israel about God’s judgment upon them (Matt 24:1–2; Luke 19:43–44).

When was this prophecy to Israel fulfilled? It happened in AD 70—during the Church age! Do you know where I am going with this?

Once again, why are we told that the prophecy to Israel about the 70 weeks excludes any fulfillment during the Church age, but a prophecy to Israel about its judgment is not?

When you have a theological system such as pretribulationism built on a web of assumptions, you will inevitably face internal inconsistencies.

In the present:

God also works with Israel and the Church at the same time, not just in the past, but the present:

“(19) But again I ask, didn’t Israel understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; with a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger.” (20) And Isaiah is even bold enough to say, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became well known to those who did not ask for me.” (Rom 10:19–20)

“I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous.” (Rom 11:11)

“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.” (Rom 11:25)

These passages teach that God in this present Church age is working with Israel to make them “jealous.”

These reasons are sufficient to show that pretrib logic fails miserably when they claim that the Church “cannot be here” for the last part of Daniel’s prophecy.

I got here late so I just read this. I am so glad you started this discussion. I have been asking the same questions while I re-examine what I believe to be truth. So I look forward to reading this long thread and making my comments when I feel the need to. Thanks Joe....oh Canada, glorious and free.....(Go Habs Go)

i know the argument it is the time of Jacobs trouble which many say excludes the church being present. That may or may not be totally accurate. However, I’m going to be looking for other reasons besides that one to have the church completely out before the week begins. 

Ive read a few books by Alan Kirshner and saw his debate with tommy ice so I am familiar with the pre wrath doctrines. They do believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, but the two leaders of the theory say the rapture is sometime in the middle of the second half of the week. I find that hard to believe. Maybe the current pre wrath th8nking has evolved from that timeline. 

 

spock

Edited March 1, 2019 by Spock

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/26/2019 at 8:58 PM, Wayne222 said:

That was a good story. You know God's servant Corrie Ten Boom said false teachers will tell you you will not go through the tribulation. The post trib view is right. There is only one view taught in the bible. But I will not fight about it. They can believe in the pre trib if they want to bad enough.

You know Paul gave some instruction to his disciple, Timothy in 2 Tim 4:

1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Now this was Paul writing near the end of his ministry, near the end of his life and he knew it. Often a person, knowing that their end is near, says things that they think are important - their last words. In this case, what was on Paul's mind? In that quote above, there is a lot to note.

He charges Timothy, in the presence of God and Christ. The word here is enōpion, he is basically saying, with God as my witness, or under the watchful eye of God. It is not presence, like we see so often about the presence of Christ when He comes after the great tribulation, the parousia. I think that observation should let us see, that Paul here, is a serious as Paul gets, and Paul is often serious anyway.

While the presence he spoke of was not the second coming of Christ, he then went on to mention that as well. This is where he said "by His appearing".

 

Regarding Corrie Ten Boon, it is best that we get our doctrine from the Bible, not from personalities. However, as a Christian who has been used of God and seen and experienced tribulation first hand, it can be good to ponder what she has said, and see if it is not worth considering. To that end, here is something she wrote about that topic and how it applies to the church in her view:

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence. 
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that.  Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution.  Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, 
how to stand when the tribulation comes, 
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation."  Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

Take it for what it's worth!

Now, this thread is about the failure of pretrib logic, and it is a good one, I think. Logic has it's place, but revelation, the words of God to man, is much more important than logic. That is what I am trying to call attention to in this post. The concern is (or should be) not so much if there is a pre-trib rapture or not, but what should we, the saints, the church, the body of Christ, be doing here with our time, and in our lives.

Whether or not the Lord returns before the tribulation to rapture His church, we can debate. However, there should be no debate that He is coming again after the tribulation, as the righteous Judge. We all know, or have contact with, people who do not know Jesus. They are our friends, our relatives, our associates, our neighbors, and even strangers. The need to hear the gospel, they need to understand it, and that is our job, no matter what our eschatological position is.

I spoke of Paul last words before. Jesus also had some last words for His disciples in Matthew 28:

 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

That is our job, those are our marching orders, this is what we are to be doing, until He comes. Go, make disciples, and teach them all that Jesus commanded His disciples. Why not do that even this day? Someone's eternity is at stake!

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

I got here late so I just read this. I am so glad you started this discussion. I have been asking the same questions while I re-examine what I believe to be truth. So I look forward to reading this long thread and making my comments when I feel the need to. Thanks Joe....oh Canada, glorious and free.....(Go Habs Go)

i know the argument it is the time of Jacobs trouble which many say excludes the church being present. That may or may not be totally accurate. However, I’m going to be looking for other reasons besides that one to have the church completely out before the week begins. 

Ive read a few books by Alan Kirshner and saw his debate with tommy ice so I am familiar with the pre wrath doctrines. They do believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, but the two leaders of the theory say the rapture is sometime in the middle of the second half of the week. I find that hard to believe. Maybe the current pre wrath th8nking has evolved from that timeline. 

 

spock

Hey brother,

If you want to really look into things, have a look at.....gospelintheendtimes.com. On the left side, scroll down a bit and have a look at the video series...."Dawn of a New Day". They are short videos, about 8-10 minutes each. They really do explain a lot, all scriptural based.

I have also read Alan k's books. Also Joel Richardson (Joelstrumpet.com) and Mark Davidson (foursignposts.com)

These guys bring a wealth of information.

So you're a real Habs fan eh? Good stuff bro. They are a great team.