Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Revelation Man]

On 2/5/2019 at 8:37 PM, Steve Conley said:

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism.

Which of course means FACE or in the Presence of the Lord's Wrath. So Joel 2:31 means the Sun and Moon will turn DARK in the PRESENCE of the Day of the Lord. This "whole relying the English translations" without the root word study is where people get off track, then they get all offended when someone points out the meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek etc. We have computers, it's easy for us to go the extra mile. 

Any Hebrew Scholar will tell us what that means is in the presence of/face of.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was "opened in heaven": and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Now, When was the door to heaven "CLOSED"? If it is opened at the rapture, and it was opened in the first century by Jesus, then when was it closed?

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (AFTER THE RAPTURE)

Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.  (tied into the next verse)

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 

The rapture SHUTS the door to heaven until the END of the tribulation.

In Rev. 11:19 the temple in heaven is "opened" at the 2nd coming.

 Rev. 15:5 the temple is "opened" to release the bowl judgments. In verse 8 it says no one could enter the temple until the bowl judgments are finished. That means NO rapture or first resurrection during that time period. This means these two events happen at the same time. The bowl judgments START at the 2nd coming. They are severe and so it makes sense that they will only last 45 days (the extra time added to the end of the 3.5 year tribulation as per Daniel 12). 

 

You answered nary a reply I made !! The Rapture which is pre 70th week will indeed shut the door, then after the Church Marries the Lamb we return at the Second Coming. We can't have a conversation when you just dodge all the points I just made in the previous post..

[Revelation Man]

On 2/5/2019 at 6:23 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

Hi RM,

Yes brother, I agree........ there are 24 thrones with 24 Elders in Heaven in the throne room before the seals are opened.

But that's not what you stated. You said......"So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! "

I disagree with that. The 24 Elders are not representative of the Church. Why didn't John see them until Rev 7:9?

Because they weren't there yet. 

Rev 4:4...." Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw  twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads". 

He goes on to describe everything else that he saw. If the saints were there, clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads, why didn't he also describe them. This would have been a huge victory for the saints. The praises of them, a huge multitude which no man could count, would have been deafening. Yet, no mention of them whatsoever. None. Not till further along in Rev 7:9. Now you must admit that Rev 4 to at least 9 is chronological...right?

Yes sir, chapters 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 15+16 are indeed in chronological order. The Elders are the Church in this instance. We know that "absence of proof is not the proof of absence" thus just because they are not mentioned specifically doesn't mean they are not there. We know God is not a respecter of men, the 24 Elders are a part of the Church as I have proven, thus if they are there, so are the rest of the Church. Guess what else is not mentioned in chapter four, not one time is an Angel mentioned, like I said, absence of proof is not the proof of absence, we know Angels are in Heaven, likewise with the Elders seen in Heaven before the Seals are opened, we know the Church is also in Heaven, and we also know there were no chapters and verses, it was all added by the English translators !!

The Elders had to Marry the Lamb to get their White Robes. In Rev. 5:9 we see they sing that they are Redeemed, and in Rev. 7:9-16 we see that the Church came out of the Church Age Tribulation. We see that the 24 Elders are mentioned in Rev. 7, John was asked a question by one. We see the Elders have the exact same gifts promised to the Seven Churches.

We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened !! 

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The different views of who these 24 Elders are here below....................see the Blue.

1.) The 24 Elders are Angels...........................Well, we see humans called Elders but never have we seen Angels called elders. Also throughout the book of Revelation Elders and Angels are distinguished. Thirdly in Rev. 5:9 the Elders sing a Song of Redemption, so lets discount that viewpoint.

2.) The Elders are the Church AND Israel..........The problem with this is that Israel will not be Resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2) and rewarded until the Second Coming of Christ.

3.) The 24 Elders are the Church..........BINGO..........The reasons are many, I will list them below:

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

In Pre-tribulationism: the Rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation. 

So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! 

This however wouldn't work in Post tribulation theory or with pre-wrath theory either !!

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !!  Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church there is ONE MARRIAGE !! 

On 2/5/2019 at 6:23 PM, JoeCanada said:

"Do you understand what that means ? Not talking about it isn't going to make the facts go away brother. 

We are in Heaven because we are RAPTURED THERE !! Pretty basic stuff brother.".....(you said)

I sure do understand. Yes, we are RAPTURED THERE.....in HEAVEN. Rev 7:9. The first time that John SEES the Raptured Saints. "And they cried out with a loud voice.....Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb"

 Yes, it is pretty basic stuff. But only if you read Rev as it is written. At least from Rev 4-9....as written. You can't go changing the order to make it fit an assumed position. Not logical bro.

The Elders are the Church, it's quite evident. But that throws your understanding into chaos doesn't it ? It is what it is brother. God Bless.

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was "opened in heaven": and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev. 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Now, When was the door to heaven "CLOSED"? If it is opened at the rapture, and it was opened in the first century by Jesus, then when was it closed?

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (AFTER THE RAPTURE)

Luke 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.  (tied into the next verse)

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 

The rapture SHUTS the door to heaven until the END of the tribulation.

In Rev. 11:19 the temple in heaven is "opened" at the 2nd coming.

 Rev. 15:5 the temple is "opened" to release the bowl judgments. In verse 8 it says no one could enter the temple until the bowl judgments are finished. That means NO rapture or first resurrection during that time period. This means these two events happen at the same time. The bowl judgments START at the 2nd coming. They are severe and so it makes sense that they will only last 45 days (the extra time added to the end of the 3.5 year tribulation as per Daniel 12). 

 

Rev. 4:1 was JOHN being called up to heaven. Don't read into it what is not there!  He was called up SO THAT we would have this book to read.

So you found several verses about heavens being opened....in the case of Stephen it meant that Stephen could see into heaven, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. There are other doors that God opens that are not doors into heaven. It could be an opportunity door.  We must leave verses in their context to get the real meaning.

Just because the rapture door closes does NOT mean no one gets to heaven during the 70th week. Without much doubt, millions will be beheaded, and their spirits will certainly go to heaven. Therefore I disagree with your post. There is a planet we call heaven. On that planet is the Holy City and IN that Holy City is the temple that is closed. No one can enter the temple until the vial judgments are over. It says NOTHING about heaven around the temple. Therefore it does NOT mean "no rapture." However, there is no rapture scheduled for that time anyway. 

This means these two events happen at the same time.   No it doesn't!

The bowl judgments START at the 2nd coming.   No they don't! John does not tell us exactly when, but they will come after the days of great tribulation have been ongoing for some time. Just a wild guess: perhaps around the start or middle of year 3 of the second half of the week. God will use the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT.

They are severe and so it makes sense that they will only last 45 days   WHAT? God may well pour the first 6 out in one hour! How on earth do you come up with 45 days?  Go back and read: the week ends with the 7th vial, but Jesus remains in heaven for the events of chapters 17 and 18 to take place, then for the marriage and supper to take place BEFORE He descends. He does not come on the last day of the week. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, George said:

For this reason, I've changed n2thelight's status as it's quite an unorthodox doctrine.  It's the same teachings pressed forward by organizations such as Shepherd's Chapel and other Kenite teachings.

Thanks. It was needed.

[Steve Conley]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

On 2/5/2019 at 9:37 PM, Steve Conley said:

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism.

Which of course means FACE or in the Presence of the Lord's Wrath. So Joel 2:31 means the Sun and Moon will turn DARK in the PRESENCE of he Day of the Lord. This whole relying the English translations without the root word study is where people get off track, then they get all offended when someone points out the meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek etc. We have computers, it's easy for us to go the extra mile. 

Any Hebrew Scholar can tell you what that means. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

At it again are you, providing falsehoods to keep folks in the dark. I would identify you by the fitting name I gave you in the past, but you would cry to the moderator in an attempt to silence me. So, I will address you as the one with the name I cannot use.

You and the Apostle Peter interpret Joel's prophecy differently. Should folks follow the man with the name I cannot use, or should they listen to Peter's divine interpretation of Joel's use of the word "before" as recorded in Acts 2:20. I'll follow Peter.

It is true that the Hebrew word paw-neem' can mean before in the sense of "prior to" or before in the sense of "in the face of" (in front of). Context is the primary driver in the proper interpretation of any word. When there is a difference of opinion concerning which interpretation is correct, we recognize the subjectiveness of the statement. However, with Scripture we have additional assurances when it comes to the interpretation of a text. All Scripture is divinely given and any judgement of it can be counted upon to be true.

It just so happens that Joel's prophecy is quoted by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:20. There it is recorded in Koine Greek. One thing about those Greeks is that "they had a word for it." The Greek language is much more precise having different words to reflect the various nuances of whatever was being communicated. So, Peter's quotation of Joel's prophecy provides us with a divine interpretation of the word paw-neem'. Does it mean "in the face of" or does it mean "prior to"? What is the Greek word that Peter uses? 

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before (prin) that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter uses the Greek word "prin" which only means prior to. He could have used "pro-ag'-o" which means before in place or time. He also could have used "pro" meaning in front of.

If the man whose name I can't say is correct Peter would have used "em'-pros-then" which most closely communicates "in the presence of." But he didn't. He, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, said "prin", a time-related word. Peter says "before" in the sense of time, not place.

And you think that you excel all others in eschatological understanding. You don't even do your homework. In your desperation to find standing for that bankrupt pre-tib system, you have become blind to the evidence provided by a simple investigation. When you want a lie long enough God is apt to let you have it. Take this correction as another opportunity God is affording you to embrace the truth. It is written, a wise man loveth reproof. Be wise.

All praise, honour, and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Steve Conley

[Montana Marv]

12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

And you think that you excel all others in eschatological understanding. You don't even do your homework. In your desperation to find standing for that bankrupt pre-tib system, you have become blind to the evidence provided by a simple investigation. When you want a lie long enough God is apt to let you have it. Take this correction as another opportunity God is affording you to embrace the truth. It is written, a wise man loveth reproof. Be wise.

Provide me with one Scripture that reveals the time of the Rapture.  Not a description of the Rapture. If one can, they then would then be considered a liar, since it is only God the Father who knows this time for the Rapture (Matt 24:36).  And God the Father is not the written or spoken Word.  If one can grasp this, then maybe their views will change.  Don't look for the time of the Rapture in Jesus Christ the Word, It is not there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 4:1 was JOHN being called up to heaven. Don't read into it what is not there!  He was called up SO THAT we would have this book to read.

So you found several verses about heavens being opened....in the case of Stephen it meant that Stephen could see into heaven, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. There are other doors that God opens that are not doors into heaven. It could be an opportunity door.  We must leave verses in their context to get the real meaning.

Just because the rapture door closes does NOT mean no one gets to heaven during the 70th week. Without much doubt, millions will be beheaded, and their spirits will certainly go to heaven. Therefore I disagree with your post. There is a planet we call heaven. On that planet is the Holy City and IN that Holy City is the temple that is closed. No one can enter the temple until the vial judgments are over. It says NOTHING about heaven around the temple. Therefore it does NOT mean "no rapture." However, there is no rapture scheduled for that time anyway. 

This means these two events happen at the same time.   No it doesn't!

The bowl judgments START at the 2nd coming.   No they don't! John does not tell us exactly when, but they will come after the days of great tribulation have been ongoing for some time. Just a wild guess: perhaps around the start or middle of year 3 of the second half of the week. God will use the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT.

They are severe and so it makes sense that they will only last 45 days   WHAT? God may well pour the first 6 out in one hour! How on earth do you come up with 45 days?  Go back and read: the week ends with the 7th vial, but Jesus remains in heaven for the events of chapters 17 and 18 to take place, then for the marriage and supper to take place BEFORE He descends. He does not come on the last day of the week. 

Hello, and welcome to the discussion.

The topic concerns the 70th week itself. You and others keep insisting on the 70th week beginning at or near the cross. What is the proof for that. After many weeks, I am still waiting for the proof. Maybe you can help? Or, are you also going to keep evading the question like the rest?

I have shown in an earlier post all my calculations and how they agree with everything the Bible says about Jesus' birth, baptism and the cross, and how everything coincides with history as well. No contradictions  in the 69th week ending at the baptism.

All discussions concerning interpretation of prophecy hinge on this key element. We all must make sure that we are NOT using assumptions and instead are using truth as a basis for our arguments. My assertion is that the 70th week was all ready partially fulfilled in the first century and therefore only 3.5 years remain for any future prophetic fulfillment before the 2nd coming. 

What is the basis for your assumption of the 70th week ending at the cross (or a few days before it)?

[JoeCanada]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes sir, chapters 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 15+16 are indeed in chronological order. The Elders are the Church in this instance. We know that "absence of proof is not the proof of absence" thus just because they are not mentioned specifically doesn't mean they are not there. We know God is not a respecter of men, the 24 Elders are a part of the Church as I have proven, thus if they are there, so are the rest of the Church. Guess what else is not mentioned in chapter four, not one time is an Angel mentioned, like I said, absence of proof is not the proof of absence, we know Angels are in Heaven, likewise with the Elders seen in Heaven before the Seals are opened, we know the Church is also in Heaven, and we also know there were no chapters and verses, it was all added by the English translators !!

The Elders had to Marry the Lamb to get their White Robes. In Rev. 5:9 we see they sing that they are Redeemed, and in Rev. 7:9-16 we see that the Church came out of the Church Age Tribulation. We see that the 24 Elders are mentioned in Rev. 7, John was asked a question by one. We see the Elders have the exact same gifts promised to the Seven Churches.

We see the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened !! 

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The different views of who these 24 Elders are here below....................see the Blue.

1.) The 24 Elders are Angels...........................Well, we see humans called Elders but never have we seen Angels called elders. Also throughout the book of Revelation Elders and Angels are distinguished. Thirdly in Rev. 5:9 the Elders sing a Song of Redemption, so lets discount that viewpoint.

2.) The Elders are the Church AND Israel..........The problem with this is that Israel will not be Resurrected (Daniel 12:1-2) and rewarded until the Second Coming of Christ.

3.) The 24 Elders are the Church..........BINGO..........The reasons are many, I will list them below:

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

In Pre-tribulationism: the Rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation. 

So the above definition of pre-trib fits perfectly with the 24 Elders being the Church in Heaven doesn't it ? Before the Seals are opened !! 

This however wouldn't work in Post tribulation theory or with pre-wrath theory either !!

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !!  Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church there is ONE MARRIAGE !! 

The Elders are the Church, it's quite evident. But that throws your understanding into chaos doesn't it ? It is what it is brother. God Bless.

 

Hi RM, 

Even when we get to Rev 5:11, there is still no mention of the "Church" in heaven. Remember, there were no chapter breaks. From Rev 4 on, John is describing "things" which he saw. And he didn't see the Church yet. But he did see the living creatures and the elders and myriads of myriads of angels. Still no church!

When does he see the 'Church" in heaven? Not until Rev 7:9. 

As far as the elders receiving their crowns, well, so what.

Stephanos: From an apparently primary “stepho” (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: – crown.

It is the context that determines the ultimate meaning of a word or phrase that represent a term. In the case of stephanos, there are 18 occurrences of this word in the New Testament. It is apparent that the use of the word is different according to the context. In Matt 27:29, Mark 15:17, and John 19:2 & John 19:5 it refers to the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. In Phil 4:1 Paul says that other believers are his stepahnos using it as a metaphor. Paul uses the same word again in the same way, and then adds that we receive it at Christ’s coming in 1 Thes 2:19. There are 3 occurrences where it is clear from the context that stephanos refers to the believer’s crown and those occur in 1 Tim 4:8, James 1:12, and 1 Pet 5:4. After that It appears in Revelation. The first to instances also seem to refer to the believer’s crown in Rev 2:10 & Rev 3:11. After that, the 24 elders are introduced as having stephanos in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:10. In Rev 6:2 it is the antichrist that wears a stephanos. Later in Rev 9:7 the locusts have a stephanos. Then the woman in Rev 12:1, and finally by an a mighty angel in Rev 14:14. The use of word stephanos in and of itself does not equate identity with the the Church. In some cases it does refer to the believers crown, but that is determined based on context. The context of Rev 4 says that these stephanos are worn by the 24 elders. To make the 24 elders the Church by virtue of the stephanos is not justified any more than saying the antichrist is the Church because he is wearing a stephanos in Rev 6:2.

You stated........"in Rev. 7:9-16 we see that the Church came out of the Church Age Tribulation."

The distinction between "Church age" saints and "tribulation" saints is a distinction that is not made in scripture. It is a theological invention and construct that has NO biblical support. NONE!

You stated......."We know that "absence of proof is not the proof of absence" thus just because they are not mentioned specifically doesn't mean they are not there."

Really! This coming from a guy who says he knows more about the books of Revelation and Daniel. WOW!

Brother....give your head a shake.....

 

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM, 

Even when we get to Rev 5:11, there is still no mention of the "Church" in heaven. Remember, there were no chapter breaks. From Rev 4 on, John is describing "things" which he saw. And he didn't see the Church yet. But he did see the living creatures and the elders and myriads of myriads of angels. Still no church!

Like I stated, the Church is in Heaven, the 24 Elders prove that, just because the Multitude is not mentioned means nothing, if you were intellectually honest with yourself of course you would have to admit the Elders are the Church, which they are, thus the Church is there, having already Married the Lamb. He does see the Church, in that the Elders are the Church, you not admitting it changes nothing in reality. 

Your whole world revolves around an untruth it seems. When you get to Heaven, you will then find out you were wrong. So be it, but whilst I am on earth I will try to undo that which is done from ignorance (meaning people are not doing this on purpose, they are you not understanding the issue) of said facts, by those that lead others down wrong paths, whatsoever issue that may be about. 

Rev. 19, the Church is in Heaven and RETURNS, whilst the Beast and his Kings are STILL ON EARTH. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Revelation Man