Water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism are two different issues

[Mike Mclees]

I heard this verse in a dream before I was Born again. I was in deep conviction for the life I was living. I ordered a book by Billy Graham about the Holy spirit. In the dream a man that looked like a monk was standing in the shadows and was saying Abba. I didn't know what it meant but the dream is still like crystal in my mind It was Billy's book that told me what the word meant. It was Arabic For Father. It was not long after that I became a Born again Believer.  

[Starise]

 

As I have come to understand the work of the Spirit in my own life I can't point to one huge Ah Ha event. It has been more like a gentle prodding a gentle convicting force in my life guiding me in the same way a shepherd would guide a sheep. It wasn't as if one day I was empty and the next day I was suddenly "filled". This has been a process for me over time. I have sinned plenty since then. Confessed it and gone on doing my best live a "Spirit Filled" life.

If being filled with the Spirit is truly a work of God I think it will happen if we are willing irrespective of denominational teaching. All it takes is a willing submitted heart. There might not be some huge display of these changes all of a sudden in the form of gifts the way some churches seem to portray it IMHO. I can be filled with the Spirit and never speak in tongues. I believe it is dangerous to use some gifts as a litmus for spirit filled. Did Jesus ever speak in tongues? I have no record of it. How about John The Baptist? No indication he did either.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Starise
no one wants to read it.

[Mike Mclees]

41 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

I heard this verse in a dream before I was Born again. I was in deep conviction for the life I was living. I ordered a book by Billy Graham about the Holy spirit. In the dream a man that looked like a monk was standing in the shadows and was saying Abba. I didn't know what it meant but the dream is still like crystal in my mind It was Billy's book that told me what the word meant. It was Arabic For Father. It was not long after that I became a Born again Believer. 

 Roman 8:26  For we know not what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  

 

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[R. Hartono]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

 Did Jesus ever speak in tongues? I have no record of it. How about John The Baptist? No indication he did either.

Jesus is God Himself, why should He ? 1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue (glosolalia) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth (xenolalia) edifieth the church. Rome 8:26 .... for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

John the Baptist passed away before Holy Spirit is poured at Pentecost day.

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

what is GLOSOLALIA ? What Bible version is it?

Glosolalia and Xenolalia  means speaking in tongue where Holy Spirit moves one's tongue to utter language. This first happened with the church at Pentecost Day where Holy Spirit was poured to the earl church.

The gift of Tongues is divided in two :

1. GLOSOLALIA, this will accompany the baptism of Holy Spirit, people will feel their tongue move by itself when they are slain in the spirit and cry at the feet of Jesus as the FIRE OF HOLY SPIRIT enter their body.

IF YOU UTTER GLOSOLALIA SOME PEOPLE WHO LISTEN WILL THINK YOU ARE CRAZY

1 Cor 14: 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

BECAUSE GLOSOLALIA IS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD TO STRENGTHEN FAITH.

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue (glosolalia) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth (xenolalia) edifieth the church.

WE UTTER GLOSOLALIA WHEN OUR GROANINGS CANNOT BE UTTERED THAT IT HURT DEEPLY, WE THEN LET HOLY SPIRIT TAKE OVER AND PRAY FOR US IN THE BAD SITUATION.

Rome 8:26 .... for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

2. XENOLALIA, Holy Spirit move our tongue to speak His message directly to people with the words not from our mind, this could be a foreign language, this is a gift of PROPHECY and not every believer is bestowed with this gift.

1 Cor 14: 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

XENOLALIA must be judged by others and those with the gift of xenolalia and the gift of vision will rebuke others if that is of manmade words.

IN THE CHURCH WHERE HOLY SPIRIT GIFTs MANIFEST THERE ARE 9 GIFTS AND THE GIFT OF TONGUE IS ONE OF THEM.

1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1. Wisdom 2.Knowledge 3. Faith 4.Healing 5.miracle, 6.prohecy (XENOLALIA), 7.Discerning spirit, 8. divers kinds of tongues (glosolalia) 9. interpretation of tongues.

The gift of Wisdom, knowledge and discerning spirit can come in the form of VISION.

So if unbelievers came into our congregation he will be revealed to the whole people with the gifts of vision and xenolalia.

1 Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

PEOPLE WITH BAD INTENTION OR BLACK MAGIC WILL BE PUT TO SHAME IF THEY COME INTO CONGREGATION WITH HOLY SPIRIT GIFTS.

THE PEOPLE WITH THE GIFT OF PROPHECY CAN CONTROL WHEN TO UTTER AND WHEN TO STOP XENOLALIA.

The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
1 Cor 14:31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/14-4.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/glo_ssais_1100.htm

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

That's one way of reading it. But there are others. From my reading of scripture as a whole, I see the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from salvation. it is also in accordance with my experience.

Matt 3:11  I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes One who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
 

[R. Hartono]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:08 PM, enoob57 said:

suggesting two baptisms does not fit within Scripture
 

Eph 4:3-6

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
KJV
 

If you hv acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and have been baptized with water, it doesnt necessarily means you have already received the Holy Spirit.

Example : Paul confers the gift of the Holy Spirit to the BELIEVERS of Christ after they have received water baptism.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES and prophesied.

Peter and John placed their hands to BELIEVERS WHO HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED so they may rcvd the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16 For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

[R. Hartono]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:40 PM, enoob57 said:

These two area of Scripture clearly indicate the many into one hence baptisms into one baptism.... The doctrine of baptisms...

True, one baptism in the name of Jesus.

Of the water and

Of Holy Spirit by Jesus Himself as a SEAL FOR REDEMPTION DAY

Matt 3:11  I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
 

ITS THE SEAL OF THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, WHETHER WE ARE UNDER THE TOMBSTONE OR STILL ALIVE.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Our God is alive and wait for people to humbly bow and accept Holy Spirit baptism, it doesnt come as soon as you ask that though, there will be a test to show perseverance. Who shall win in your battle, flesh or spirit.

Edited December 23, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Starise]

 

I'll just come out and say it. Do you think speaking in tongues is a test for all believers to determine if they are spirit filled or not? 

 I have known many spirit filled people and not one of them spoke in tongues. This is a denominational ruse in my opinion.

It also fosters a "them" and "us" mentality because now some will think they are more spiritual as the result of a determined outward expression or an experience that they think puts them higher. That's the sin of pride. This is one of the reasons I am not Pentecostal. I believe they put too much emphasis on the "gifts" and not enough emphasis on simply living good Christian lives led by the spirit.

If I all of a sudden am given this "gift" what should I do? If the gift edifies only me, then I guess I'm the only one that needs to know about it.

I see some aspects of the gift of tongues as dangerous because many churches rely on some kind of outward display to determine a person's spirituality. The outward display can be contrived, made up or even demonically motivated. So how do I really know it's of the Lord? Only if it is done scriptural. Really only the Lord knows.

In my opinion the whole problem with any of this is that there is a tendency to judge others based on what we think we see. Only God knows the heart. Is any gift better than any other? I don't think so.

Being filled with the spirit should be a natural thing eventually for ALL Christians. What is tied to it from a visible perspective is up to God.

God seals us until the day of redemption. We can choose to be led by the Spirit or not. I think MOST make the right choices. 

When we pray and don't know what to say...I don't see this as tongues. This is simply God understanding our inner man and answering us regardless of our words or lack therof.

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

If you hv acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and have been baptized with water, it doesnt necessarily means you have already received the Holy Spirit.

Example : Paul confers the gift of the Holy Spirit to the BELIEVERS of Christ after they have received water baptism.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and THEY SPOKE IN TONGUES and prophesied.

Peter and John placed their hands to BELIEVERS WHO HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED so they may rcvd the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16 For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

The error I believe in this is taking a transitional period and making all that occurs in that transition as doctrine basis for Church being formed... the baptism of John was not the NT baptism of the New Birth...