Tongues

[enoob57]

31 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

The subject of I Corinthians is love. When perfect love comes, then the gifts are superfluous. Neither history, nor the doctrine of the canon support the dispensational view that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are no longer profitable. Glossalia has never gone away.

Agreeing to disagree to the relevance of what I have already pointed out... a good treatise of the topic of tongues  https://www.gotquestions.org/gift-of-tongues.html

32 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

It was common for centuries in the church.

not the history I have read 
snip

33-100 AD	The age of spiritual gifts.
100-150 AD	Gifts ceased! Gifts were only transmitted through the laying on of the apostles hands: Acts 8:14-19. Since John was the last apostle to die in about 100 AD, it is possible that he laid his hands on some who then lived to be 100 years old. That would mean this person might exhibit supernatural gifts until 200 AD. This is possible but unlikely. Montanus in about 150 AD claimed to speak in tongues and received strong universal opposition from the church. This would indicate that it was general knowledge that tongues had ceased by 150 AD  History records that tongues did cease. Again, it is significant that tongues are mentioned only in the earliest books of the New Testament. Paul wrote at least twelve epistles after 1 Corinthians and never mentioned tongues again. Peter never mentioned tongues; James never mentioned tongues; John never mentioned tongues; neither did Jude. Tongues appeared only briefly in Acts and 1 Corinthians as the new message of the gospel was being spread. But once the church was established, tongues were gone. They stopped. The later books of the New Testament do not mention tongues again. Nor did anyone in the post-apostolic age. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 232)  "It is significant that the gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in the Apostolic Fathers." (Cleon L. Rogers, "The Gift of Tongues in the Post-Apostolic Church," Bibliotheca Sacra 122, April-June 1965, 134.)  "Glossolalia In Christian Antiquity And The Early Middle Ages: It has been noted that beyond the New Testament our earliest writings, such as those of the Apostolic Fathers (with the possible exception of Ignatius, The Shepherd of Hermas of Rome, and the Didache) and those of the Apologists, preserve for us almost no evidence of ongoing glossolalia." (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)  Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen etc. never mention tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn!
150-600 AD	"Tongues during the apostolic age was always associated with the truth of God. Tongues outside the apostolic age has always been associated with heresy"  During the first five hundred years of the church, the only people who claimed to have spoken in tongues were followers of Montanus, who was branded a heretic. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)  "During the middle of the second century, however, two movements arose alongside or within the main body of Christians, presenting a major crisis in polity, theology, and the interpretation of the Old Testament, which did have glossolalia. The older movement was Gnosticism ... The other, a somewhat later reaction to the structural hardening of main-line Christianity, was Montanism. (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 64)  "after the apostles tongue speaking was almost entirely isolated to the Gnostics and the Montantists." (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)
600-1600 AD	"There is little evidence of any form of glossolalia during the Middle Ages in either East or West." (The Charismatic Movement, 1975, Michael P. Hamilton, p 69)  [after Montantus] "The next time any significant tongues-speaking movement arose within Christianity was in the late seventeenth century. A group of militant Protestants in the Cevennes region of southern France began to prophesy, experience visions, and speak in tongues. The group, sometimes called the Cevennol prophets, are remembered for their political and military activities, not their spiritual legacy. Most of their prophecies went unfulfilled. They were rabidly anti-Catholic, and advocated the use of armed force against the Catholic church. Many of them were consequently persecuted and killed by Rome." (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)
1600-present	Pentecostals selectively quote history to give the impression that the people of God have always spoken in tongues. But history reveals that the vast majority of movements that claimed supernatural endowments are considered by today's Pentecostals as cults.  How do Pentecostal distinguish themselves from these cults who claimed to exhibit the identical "supernatural manifestations" like tongues, prophecy etc. Gnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons [Joseph Smith] , Catholics, Quakers, Shakers, Seventh-day Adventists [Ellen White], Christian Scientist [Mary Eddy], Worldwide church of God [Herbert Armstrong.]. Just to name a few!  The fact remains that since the canon of Scripture was completed, no genuine revival or orthodox movement has ever been led by people whose authority is based in any way on private revelations from God. Many groups have claimed to receive new revelation, but all of them have been fanatical, heretical, cultic, or fraudulent. Both Charismatics and non-charismatics need to consider whether there is a parallel between these groups and the modern charismatic movement. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 73)  From Sola Scriptura to "Something More": Virtually every cult and false teaching ever spawned was begun on the premise that its leader or leaders had access to new revelation. Just about every false teacher from spiritualist Edgar Cayce to L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology, has claimed revelation of some kind from God. All have abandoned the tenet of Sola Scriptura and embarked on a dangerous quest for something more. The charismatics' acceptance of modern "prophecy" represents a turn down a perilous road. The marker may read "Something More," but the road of new revelation is really a path to something less. It is filled with detours, dead ends, giant chuckholes—and very little else. Some charismatics are troubled about this problem. (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 81) "Origins of Pentecostalism. Speaking in tongues. Glossolalia, the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, in the apostolic church is known primarily from the writings of St. Luke and St. Paul. After an initial outburst of speaking in tongues, in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, the phenomenon appeared later at Caesarea, Ephesus, and Corinth, a city in which prophets, healers, and speakers in tongues were very active. Other post-apostolic instances of glossolalia have been recorded throughout the history of the Christian church: among the Montanists (heretical followers of the 2nd-century Phrygian prophet Montanus), [comment: note the big jump in time between montanus 150 AD and Anabaptists 1521 AD] among radical Anabaptists (extreme left-wing Protestants in 16th-century Germany), and among the Camisards (a radical Protestant peasant group from southern France) and Jansenists (a Catholic reform movement) in 17th and 18th century France. The gift of tongues was also prolific among the Shakers, a celibate communal religious sect in the mid-18th century United States. During the 19th century, an outburst of glossolalia and some instances of healing occurred, notably in the Scottish preacher Edward Irving's church in London's Regent Square, among the Mormons, [comment: note that Mormons are also listed!] and among various groups of Holiness people in the mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina." (Pentecostal Churches, Encyclopedia Britannica, 1979, vol 14, p31)

 

 

32 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

At the recognition of the canon, there was no announcement condemning the continued manifestation of tongues.

to Say a thing is so by it not being said I think a large error in logic...

 

32 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

This dispensational view is a modern creation.

A categorization of How God dealt with people in different times and eras is not new but is in itself within the record of God by Scripture... and must be rightly divided as God says

2 Tim 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV
 

[enoob57]

15 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

I pray that God will give to you all that He intends. God bless.

Thank you brother of mine and He has -His Word-  

[Justin Adams]

Two things I might add. One, never base a doctrine on a preposition, and Two, do not base doctrine on 'got questions'.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Justin Adams

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Enoob,

What is faith? Does not faith involve trust? Is not Trust based on an emotion, a Passion for another? Is Not walking in the Spirit yielding control of our will to His will, and being Led by the Spirit? Is there not a Loss of control here and a feeling of peace that comes with this? I argue that tongues is one such experience like this, but unlike most charismatics it is not the Only One when a person is filled with the Spirit. Some Prophesy for example.... Do You think Prophets who carry a burden for a certain group of people, many times with tears and great heartache are using emotions to bolster their faith? Or are the emotions a result of their faith? 

So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. 

Many different denominations have different ways of explaining this, and because this act is so irrational the human mind cannot fully explain these events many have come to understand it in different ways and reach this point by different means. For example I as a Baptist was taught the concept of Belief moving from your head to your heart. Some speak of total surrender. Some call this Putting to death the flesh. And some call this being "raptured", or becoming a New creation. In First Corinthians 3, which you quoted above Paul speaks and says that He Planted the seeds in Corinth and Apollus watered those plants, this is the same thing. The seed is Christ Jesus, Water representing the Holy Ghost, and God is the one that grants the growth. The seed must die before growth can occur. Such is the walk of faith.  Tongues is one such event that can occur among many that can happen to person after they become saved and the water brings growth in them.

I believe the Pentecostal movement was a real move of God that has gotten corrupted over time, Just like the reformation of Luther was a real move of God that got corrupted over time, and fundamentalism was a real movement of God that got corrupted over time. Each of those movement had people being liberated from overbearing religious extremes, only to be bound into new ones that were false. Think Back to what the Victorian era was known for, religious extremes hyper rationalism and rigid modernism. The Pentecostal movement was a liberation from these extremes. Where are we now in the church? what religious extremes are we facing today? When You see this you will see where the Holy Ghost is moving. Look at what is dealt with on this site as a case and point of this. These are the corruptions of the Pentecostal movement, things such as Hebrew roots, Dominionism, Word faith and prosperity preaching, All are rooted in the Post modernist mindset that came to fruition in the 60's, but was ultimately born in the Pentecostal movement as a liberating force, which has become a force of bondage now and opposition to the truth. 

The way I see it, as a sociologist is that each church age progresses from a movement of liberation of the Spirit working in them, to that movement becoming institutionalized, and becoming bigger than the individuals, and thereby becoming corrupted, till once again a small minority receive the Move of the Holy Ghost and the will to speak up and post their 95 theses on the door of that new cathedral, and a new movement is born. Do not confuse this with the Hegellian dialectic, in which a synthesis is formed, that is more binding than the rest, But this is a move of the Holy Ghost, God inserting himself into the social dialectic of the church, and transforming it till we all reach the fulness. The final outpouring of the Spirit will be the gift of discernment. The ability to see who serves God and who does not (Mal. 3:18).

God Bless. 

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What is faith?

what it is

Heb 11:1

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
KJV

where it comes from

Rom 10:17

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV
 

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Does not faith involve trust? Is not Trust based on an emotion, a Passion for another? Is Not walking in the Spirit yielding control of our will to His will, and being Led by the Spirit?

Yes as The Spirit uses Scripture to that end...

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Is there not a Loss of control here and a feeling of peace that comes with this?

No it is a moment by moment yielding of my will to His Will

1 Cor 14:32

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
KJV

As God does not violate my free will to His perfect Will … I am not a determinist!

 

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So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. 

I disagree faith is the substance of things hope for(that is derived from the Scripture) the evidence of things not seen (the eternal state)...

 

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I believe the Pentecostal movement was a real move of God that has gotten corrupted over time

I believe in the Acts 2 Pentecost but not in the 1900 one....

[enoob57]

21 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Two things I might add. One, never base a doctrine on a preposition, and Two, do not base doctrine on 'got questions'.

One must be obedient to Scripture

2 Tim 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

and to do this properly we must use the teachers God has provided through the Holy Spirit

1 Cor 12:28

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
KJV

you may disagree with Got questions but I do not so we must agree to disagree  

[dhchristian]

Just now, enoob57 said:

Quote

So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. 

I disagree faith is the substance of things hope for(that is derived from the Scripture) the evidence of things not seen (the eternal state)...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor. 13:2) 

Is not Love an emotion and a passion? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37)

Is this not what the Ephesian church was scolded for? Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love (rev. 2:4)

Have you ever been overcome with tears as the Holy Ghost speaks to you in a church service or reading the Word of God? Have you ever cried "Abba, Father"? (Romans 8:15)

This is the prayer that Paul prayed over the Ephesian church, which is one of the Most powerful prayers in scripture, and I am praying over you as well. 

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. ( Eph. 3:14-21) 

This is a Blessing, and not a curse when you are overcome with Emotion for the one who has saved you.

 

 

[dhchristian]

50 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

1 hour ago, charisenexcelsis said:

This dispensational view is a modern creation.

A categorization of How God dealt with people in different times and eras is not new but is in itself within the record of God by Scripture... and must be rightly divided as God says

2 Tim 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

Enoob,

I am a dispensationalist, But not a hyper dispensationalist for this very reason. You should examine the differences between these two views. You can both over divide and under divide the word of God, We must "RIGHTLY" divide the Word of God. The Hyper-dispensationalists have over divided the Word of God thus Making the Words thereof of none effect. 

[enoob57]

12 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So Yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being, which includes our passions. Faith is not just a mental ascent, an agreement of the mind with the Word of God, although that is part of it, But it is an agreement and belief of the heart as well, for with the heart we believe. 

Quote

But faith is first and foremost trusting in that which is unseen with our full being,

faith is objectively based on the Word of God... it is not trying to produce a faith in something just because it is unseen that would be substantiating mysticism! God's Word speaks to our mind

Rom 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

and it stands to reason any out of order concepts would be gain to error....

[enoob57]

16 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Enoob,

I am a dispensationalist, But not a hyper dispensationalist for this very reason. You should examine the differences between these two views. You can both over divide and under divide the word of God, We must "RIGHTLY" divide the Word of God. The Hyper-dispensationalists have over divided the Word of God thus Making the Words thereof of none effect. 

I am a traditional dispensational divisionary...

[dhchristian]

Just now, enoob57 said:

faith is objectively based on the Word of God... it is not trying to produce a faith in something just because it is unseen that would be substantiating mysticism! God's Word speaks to our mind

Rom 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

and it stands to reason any out of order concepts would be gain to error....

I Am not promoting Mysticism I am saying that faith Is more than Just Gnosis (Knowledge based) But is based on a relationship with Jesus that is intimate, Loving caring , and at time disciplining and emotional. Over the course of our life we learn to Love God with all of our being.... Heart, soul and mind, as the Words of Jesus speak of. 

 

24 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (Matthew 22:37)

Take the time to read the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians.