who is it

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Jayne said:

The first answer is that Isaiah 7:16 is a dual prophecy.  And the "accepting the good and rejecting the evil" isn't talking about Jesus.

Isaiah is speaking to King Ahaz [a bad king] who is afraid of his enemies.  God says through Isaiah to Ahaz that his enemies will not prevail and tells Ahaz to ask for a sign.

Ahaz says he will not ask God for a sign [because it the sign comes true, he will have to admit God is sovereign over him].

God says through Isaiah that he [God] will give a sign anyway.  The sign is that a young woman will have a baby boy and before that baby can grow  up to discern good from evil, the enemies of King Ahaz will be destroyed.  God is giving King Ahaz in the Old Testament a time frame for his enemies to be destroyed - about the time it takes for that baby boy [we don't know who he is or his mother] to grow up to understand right from wrong.

The flip side of that prophecy is about Jesus.  Matthew, when quoting Isaiah, uses the word "virgin".  There is only one virgin birth.  Mary bearing Jesus.

The other young woman did not have a virgin birth.

Dual prophecies are found in more places than that in the Old Testament.

Shalom, Jayne.

That's nonsense. First of all, look at what was quoted:

Matthew 1:18-25 (KJV)

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying,

"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 

23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, "God with us." 

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

This was quoted from what YHWH GOD said,

Isaiah 7:10-16 (KJV)

10 Moreover the LORD (YHWH) spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 

11 "Ask thee a sign of the LORD (YHWH) thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above."

12 But Ahaz said,

"I will not ask, neither will I tempt (test) the LORD (YHWH)."

13 And he (YHWH) said,

"Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 
14 Therefore the Lord (Adonay) himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

This is a prophecy that YHWH God Himself made! The SAME SON CALLED "`IMMAANUW-'EEL," "WITH-US-[IS] - GOD," shall be the One who eats butter and honey (both good tasting) so that He will know what is bitter and what is sweet! That's how a child learns to "refuse the evil" (refuse the bad tasting stuff) and "choose the good" (eat the good tasting stuff)! What is prophesied here is that before Yeshua` is old enough to eat solid food and decide what He likes to eat, the Sanhedrin will give up trying to make a Jew a king! The Samaritans (those of Shomron, the "capital city" of what was left of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the Ten Tribes, who were now half-breeds with the Edomites, also called "Idumaeans") had already given up on the prophecies of a Messiah-King. Those in the Judean Kingdom, the Southern Kingdom of Yhudah or Judah, still had a few hold-outs that still looked for a Messiah-King, but the breed was dwindling. The elders of Yhudah had already given up and were resigned to be rulers of Yhudah (without a king) under Roman occupation.

On that scene entered Yeshua` the Messiah-King Himself! That's what Yeshua` had to contend with when He offered Yhudah the Kingdom!

There's no "dual prophecy" here! It's ALL about Yeshua`!

Oh, and by the way, there's NO SUCH THING as a "dual prophecy" the way you're thinking about it! Prophecies were made to be fulfilled ONCE, and when they were fulfilled, that's it. They're done! Otherwise, how could one tell when a prophecy was over? How could they decide if a prophet was of God or not? Prophecies had to be fulfilled and come true for one to know that a "prophet" was indeed a prophet of God or a false (lying) prophet!

In the book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads by Douglas Connelly (Zondervan, 2002) on page 33, Mr. Connelly mentions a "Double Reference":

Quote

 

Double Reference (Techno-Speak)

The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming.

 

People will confuse this with the idea of a "dual prophecy" and think, because this "double reference" is okay, so is the "dual prophecy." But it is NOT! Prophecies are NOT "re-used!" And, these two ideas are NOT synonymous!

So, the statement, "Dual prophecies are found in more places than that in the Old Testament," is NOT TRUE! And, I CHALLENGE you to prove otherwise!

Edited February 3, 2019 by Retrobyter
to add a thought.

[Jayne]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Jayne.

That's nonsense. 

 

So you think that the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7 also had a virgin birth?  The woman that God was telling King Ahaz about?

I think not.  There was only one virgin birth.  That's Mary.

There are more than this one dual prophecy in the Bible. 

 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Jayne said:

So you think that the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7 also had a virgin birth?  The woman that God was telling King Ahaz about?

I think not.  There was only one virgin birth.  That's Mary.

There are more than this one dual prophecy in the Bible. 

Shalom, Jayne.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! The ONLY "woman" - the "virgin" - mentioned in Isaiah 7 IS Miryam ("Mary")! There's no other!

And, I'll say it again: If you're going to make a claim, like "There are more than this one dual prophecy in the Bible," PROVE IT! I DARE you!

[Jayne]

18 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Jayne.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! The ONLY "woman" - the "virgin" - mentioned in Isaiah 7 IS Miryam ("Mary")! There's no other!

And, I'll say it again: If you're going to make a claim, like "There are more than this one dual prophecy in the Bible," PROVE IT! I DARE you!

Alright...

Dual prophecies in the Bible have an immediate truth and a future truth.  I'll be honest with you.  I thought most Bible readers knew that.

Here are the ones that I am familiar with.  Others, I would have to Google.

[1]  Psalm 22 contains David's words of begging God to help him because his enemies are so tormenting.  David is in agony.  That is the immediate meaning.  The secondary meaning is how Christ would use the opening words while on the cross.  David's psalm - which we call "22" is a Messianic psalm.  That means it has its immediate meaning and is also a reference to Christ in the future.  In this agony, David points to Christ.  That's called a "type".

[2]  Ezekiel 28 is God speaking to the king of Tyre - a wicked and proud man.  Gods lists the king of Tyre's prideful acts and declares that enemies of Tyre will destroy him.  Then all of a sudden God starts speaking to him as if he were a cherub in the garden of Eden.  Well, the king of Tyre wasn't in the garden of Eden, but the devil was.  God turns from describing the king of Tyre to describing the fall of the devil: because of his pride.  The immediate meaning of this passage is the description of the king of Tyre's wickedness.  The secondary meaning of this passage is a look back at the devil and his fall.  The king of Tyre is a "type" of the Satan.

[3] Zechariah 11 has an immediate meaning of the judgment of God coming.  It's acted out by Zechariah in God asking him to take a particular job as a shepherd with particular animals destined for slaughter.  His payment is 30 pieces of silver that God asks him to throw it to the potter and Zechariah throws the money in the Temple for the potters the Bible says.  While this really did go on - as in an immediate way - for Zechariah, there is also a very obvious secondary meaning.  Jesus would be betrayed with the same scorn as Zechariah was treated by those he worked with and was paid by.  Immediate meaning - the wickedness of God's people and yet another eventual destruction.  Secondary meaning - Christ's betrayal.

[4] As I said earlier, Isaiah 7:  Near prophecy - a child would be born under King Ahaz' rule and before that child was very old, the enemies of Israel would be defeated.  Word. For. Word. It can't be more clear than it says.  Far prophecy - another young woman Mary, this time a virgin [the Greek in Matthew's quotation of this is strict virgin in the literal sense.] would give birth to Jesus.  The Hebrew word "virgin" in Isaiah has the same meaning "young woman" or "virgin".

There's more, but you'll either believe it or not.  

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Alright...

Dual prophecies in the Bible have an immediate truth and a future truth.  I'll be honest with you.  I thought most Bible readers knew that.

Here are the ones that I am familiar with.  Others, I would have to Google.

[1]  Psalm 22 contains David's words of begging God to help him because his enemies are so tormenting.  David is in agony.  That is the immediate meaning.  The secondary meaning is how Christ would use the opening words while on the cross.  David's psalm - which we call "22" is a Messianic psalm.  That means it has its immediate meaning and is also a reference to Christ in the future.  In this agony, David points to Christ.  That's called a "type".

[2]  Ezekiel 28 is God speaking to the king of Tyre - a wicked and proud man.  Gods lists the king of Tyre's prideful acts and declares that enemies of Tyre will destroy him.  Then all of a sudden God starts speaking to him as if he were a cherub in the garden of Eden.  Well, the king of Tyre wasn't in the garden of Eden, but the devil was.  God turns from describing the king of Tyre to describing the fall of the devil: because of his pride.  The immediate meaning of this passage is the description of the king of Tyre's wickedness.  The secondary meaning of this passage is a look back at the devil and his fall.  The king of Tyre is a "type" of the Satan.

[3] Zechariah 11 has an immediate meaning of the judgment of God coming.  It's acted out by Zechariah in God asking him to take a particular job as a shepherd with particular animals destined for slaughter.  His payment is 30 pieces of silver that God asks him to throw it to the potter and Zechariah throws the money in the Temple for the potters the Bible says.  While this really did go on - as in an immediate way - for Zechariah, there is also a very obvious secondary meaning.  Jesus would be betrayed with the same scorn as Zechariah was treated by those he worked with and was paid by.  Immediate meaning - the wickedness of God's people and yet another eventual destruction.  Secondary meaning - Christ's betrayal.

[4] As I said earlier, Isaiah 7:  Near prophecy - a child would be born under King Ahaz' rule and before that child was very old, the enemies of Israel would be defeated.  Word. For. Word. It can't be more clear than it says.  Far prophecy - another young woman Mary, this time a virgin [the Greek in Matthew's quotation of this is strict virgin in the literal sense.] would give birth to Jesus.  The Hebrew word "virgin" in Isaiah has the same meaning "young woman" or "virgin".

There's more, but you'll either believe it or not.  

Shalom, Jayne.

No time tonight (gotta go to work in the morning), but I will answer these.

[nobleseed]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Maybe I've not had enough caffeine, but I do not understand your question(s) at all.

well Jesus spoke publicly and was heard on the street, so how come it says he wont cry out or his voice be heard on the street

[Jayne]

4 hours ago, noblenut said:

well Jesus spoke publicly and was heard on the street, so how come it says he wont cry out or his voice be heard on the street

This prophecy came to pass or at least is referred to in Matthew 12:15-21.

"But when Jesus knew it [that the Pharisees were plotting to kill him in verse 14], He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all. Yet He warned them not to make Him known, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 'Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will declare justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel nor cry out, nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench, till He sends forth justice to victory; and in His name Gentiles will trust.'”

To me, when I read this, it means that Jesus was not going to "fight back" against the Pharisees here.  He was not going to get into a verbal brawl with them.

It would have been easy for Christ to fight back and kill them all.

But, that was not God's will for him.  He would be bruised, physically and verbally and emotionally and mentally - but not broken.  He would endure the "fires" of the Pharisee's wickedness but not be quenched out.

He had an important task.  To save his people and to bring "His name" to the Gentile and they would trust it.

The is talking of Christ's humility to God's will for his life.  Humble even to the point of not retaliating or arguing or giving revenge.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 2/3/2019 at 11:43 PM, Jayne said:

Alright...

Dual prophecies in the Bible have an immediate truth and a future truth.  I'll be honest with you.  I thought most Bible readers knew that.

Here are the ones that I am familiar with.  Others, I would have to Google.

[1]  Psalm 22 contains David's words of begging God to help him because his enemies are so tormenting.  David is in agony.  That is the immediate meaning.  The secondary meaning is how Christ would use the opening words while on the cross.  David's psalm - which we call "22" is a Messianic psalm.  That means it has its immediate meaning and is also a reference to Christ in the future.  In this agony, David points to Christ.  That's called a "type."

Shalom, Jayne.

Sorry about the delay, but I do have to work, too. Also, I was busy with Shilohsfoal in another thread.

You've got to understand that David was a PROPHET of God! What he wrote were the words that GOD had him pen for this song. These were not his own words, and you said it yourself above. They were about the MESSIAH of God, written before His arrival! David has other psalms for his own hurts. No, this one is not about David at all. Do we really have to go through the whole psalm to see this? If we must, I will, but I trust you can read it for yourself.

On 2/3/2019 at 11:43 PM, Jayne said:

[2]  Ezekiel 28 is God speaking to the king of Tyre - a wicked and proud man.  Gods lists the king of Tyre's prideful acts and declares that enemies of Tyre will destroy him.  Then all of a sudden God starts speaking to him as if he were a cherub in the garden of Eden.  Well, the king of Tyre wasn't in the garden of Eden, but the devil was.  God turns from describing the king of Tyre to describing the fall of the devil: because of his pride.  The immediate meaning of this passage is the description of the king of Tyre's wickedness.  The secondary meaning of this passage is a look back at the devil and his fall.  The king of Tyre is a "type" of the Satan.

This little gem is a MISUNDERSTOOD and MISAPPLIED passage of Scripture. As you noted, Ezekiel 28 is God speaking to the king of Tyre, not to some "keruv" called "haSatan," which is Hebrew meaning "the Enemy." We don't even know today where exactly gan-Eden (the garden of Eden) was! So, how can one say that the king of Tyre WASN'T in the garden of Eden?! People in the past centuries used this passage as "proof" of their theological point about "Satan's" origin (Satanology, a branch of angelology), but there's NOTHING in the passage that DEMANDS this to be about haSatan! Again, there's no "dual prophecy" here.

On 2/3/2019 at 11:43 PM, Jayne said:

[3] Zechariah 11 has an immediate meaning of the judgment of God coming.  It's acted out by Zechariah in God asking him to take a particular job as a shepherd with particular animals destined for slaughter.  His payment is 30 pieces of silver that God asks him to throw it to the potter and Zechariah throws the money in the Temple for the potters the Bible says.  While this really did go on - as in an immediate way - for Zechariah, there is also a very obvious secondary meaning.  Jesus would be betrayed with the same scorn as Zechariah was treated by those he worked with and was paid by.  Immediate meaning - the wickedness of God's people and yet another eventual destruction.  Secondary meaning - Christ's betrayal.

From at least Zechariah 9 through the end of the book are FUTURE prophecies about the Messiah! Again, we could go through the chapters verse by verse and show that they are ALL about the future times of the Messiah, both His First Advent and His Second Advent! Where'd you get this notion that Zechariah actually gets this thirty pieces of silver himself? Why would they do it? This was the price of a SLAVE! And, THAT'S the whole point of this passage! Again, this is all Messianic prophecy!

On 2/3/2019 at 11:43 PM, Jayne said:

[4] As I said earlier, Isaiah 7:  Near prophecy - a child would be born under King Ahaz' rule and before that child was very old, the enemies of Israel would be defeated.  Word. For. Word. It can't be more clear than it says.  Far prophecy - another young woman Mary, this time a virgin [the Greek in Matthew's quotation of this is strict virgin in the literal sense.] would give birth to Jesus.  The Hebrew word "virgin" in Isaiah has the same meaning "young woman" or "virgin".

There's more, but you'll either believe it or not.  

There's no "near prophecy" regarding this prophetic foresight. This is ALL about the Messiah, and is NOT about Achaz at all! Somebody's been filling your head with lies, and you would do best to understand that prophecies MUST be singular in nature or they SERVE NO PURPOSE AT ALL! If a prophecy could be "re-used" like that, one could NEVER know when the prophecy was finished being fulfilled! Can't you see the absurdity of it? Look at the Scriptures for telling whether a prophet was from God:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV)

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Prophets spoke much when presumably speaking for YHWH. Some of what they said was to come to pass immediately, and some would be off into the distant future. If what they said was to immediately come to pass did NOT come true, then they were to KILL that prophet. They were NOT to be afraid of him, because he didn't truly speak for YHWH!

That test would FAIL, however, IF the prophecy could be fulfilled more than once! The false prophet could just claim, "Well, this prophecy is about the far future, not right now." If a prophecy could be fulfilled more than once, then how are we to know that there couldn't be ANOTHER Messiah (besides Jesus) to fulfill the prophecies in the future?!

No, this "dual prophecy" nonsense only opens a can of worms!