Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

5 minutes ago, Spock said:

Hi Donkey,

Thanks for sharing this. Before I get into the details, I see you have chosen to make the trumpets allegorical.  I’m not saying this is wrong but I have been taught, unless what is written doesn’t make sense, use common sense. 

So, do you believe the literal interpretation of the trumpets just doesn’t  make sense, thus you believe to allegorize is the way to go? 

In addition, where does your interpretations come from?  The Bible or elsewhere?

For example you said, “green grass and trees are symbolic of BELIEVERS.”  How did you arrive at that conclusion? 

You said the 2nd trumpet “like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea and 1/3 of the sea became blood killing one third of the living things and ships” and this represented UNBELIEVERS.  Again, where does this come from?

i won’t go on until I see your response on this. Thanks.

spock

1 Peter 1:21 "

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

²² Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

²³ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

²⁴ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

²⁵ But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

 

Isaiah 40:4 "

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

⁵ And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

⁶ The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

⁷ The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

⁸ The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

 

Psalms 90:4 

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

⁵ Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

⁶ In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

⁷ For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled."

Now all of those say our flesh (the body) is like grass. But, the Rev. verse speaks of "green" grass. The green grass is healthy and good. It may even refer to newly sprouted which is the type of grass that is tender and sought after among the animals that eat it.

There are too many "green" references to list, so just look up "green" in the concordance.

 

These things came to me after I saw that the trumpets begin with the rapture. Before, I too leaned toward the thought that it was literal, but like much of the rest of Revelation - it was the words themselves and how the Bible talks about them that convinced me to look at differently. Jesus spoke in metaphors and often used "farming" and "agriculture" terms when referencing the 'faithful' and 'unfaithful', the 'obedient' and the 'disobedient'. 

It is all the "Literal-ists" (making up words here, I think) who have used there OWN interpretation to make the prophecies fit into their line of thinking. Much of what I used to accept has been altered because of this approach. Most all of prophecy is symbolic and metaphors are used all the way through history. The idea for us then is to be as close to the original meaning for every word of prophecy. God interpreted these words for us all ready, we just have to look them up in the Bible. God NEVER changes, right? Why would anyone change the meanings of these words into something else? Yeah, I know the answer.

[simplejeff]

7 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Most all of prophecy is symbolic and metaphors are used all the way through history. The idea for us then is to be as close to the original meaning for every word of prophecy. God interpreted these words for us all ready, we just have to look them up in the Bible. God NEVER changes, right? Why would anyone change the meanings of these words into something else? Yeah, I know the answer.

True, yet multitudes don't hear His Voice,  in spirit or in heart or in mind.......  for whatever reason they have,  they don't even seek Him to know Him , to hear Him, or to be saved , nor to go His Way.

When Jesus opened the minds of the two disciples on the road to emmaus, after breaking bread with them at their home,

and when He opened the minds of the Apostles and the disciples to understand Scripture,

they knew not "close to the original meaning" no...... 

they knew Yahweh's meaning perfectly.  

So it is today, whenever God grants understanding of Scripture (the translation has no effect on God's Revelation to someone).

Many people "look them up in the Bible" ,  maybe even always learning,  BUT never come to any understanding of God's Word, Scripture, nor the truth.

Edited February 27, 2019 by simplejeff

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

8 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

True, yet multitudes don't hear His Voice,  in spirit or in heart or in mind.......  for whatever reason they have,  they don't even seek Him to know Him , to hear Him, or to be saved , nor to go His Way.

When Jesus opened the minds of the two disciples on the road to emmaus, after breaking bread with them at their home,

and when He opened the minds of the Apostles and the disciples to understand Scripture,

they knew not "close to the original meaning" no...... 

they knew Yahweh's meaning perfectly.  

So it is today, whenever God grants understanding of Scripture (the translation has no effect on God's Revelation to someone).

Many people "look them up in the Bible" ,  maybe even always learning,  BUT never come to any understanding of God's Word, Scripture, nor the truth.

So true, interpretation is much more about someone going into Scripture not to have things revealed, but rather to gain support for what they WANT it to say. I began writing my book as a way of proving (or offering Biblical evidence for) a pre-trib rapture. I was right in line with all the things most people have been saying on this site (70th week is the A/C, 7 year peace treaty and so on). But, as I was going through Rev. verse by verse I began noticing contradictions in the minute details. Things were no longer lining up as I thought they should. I had a notebook with each page having its own title and then as I went through Rev AND all the other prophecy books in the Bible, I wrote down references for each of the major events shown in Revelation. One page stuck out like a sore thumb - "7 year tribulation". It ONLY had one verse - Dan. 9:27. I knew that was where the problem was. 

Of all places to find a clue, I got it from a prominent 7th day Adventist. I don't accept much of what they believe, but they do understand that the 70th week is actually about Jesus. Unfortunately, they say the 70th week ended at the death of Stephen. That makes no sense at all, and I don't understand why they do that. Anyway, making that one little change has opened up Scripture far more than any teaching I ever received or heard before. Make no mistake, prophecy brought me to true faith because I was pouring over the entire Bible very intently and at the same time researching everything I could get my hands on concerning Biblical interpretation. But, this time, and from now on, I no longer accepted things others say without applying it to the entire Bible. 

As you say, I too believe that we won't have complete understanding, BUT it is far worse to say that it does NOT matter or that we should not even try to understand it. Prophecy has always been perplexing and misinterpreted throughout history. The OT proves that the majority will always get it wrong and desire to go in a direction that God never intended or desired. The broad way will always have the most people on it.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, OneLight said:

The great crowd, that is so large that no man can number, would be everyone whose heart was toward God since the creation of man.  Nothing tells us that the body of Christ had been raptured by then.  That is an assumption many take to back a personal assigned timeline.  Many have spend years studying scripture to pinpoint where on a timeline the rapture will occur.  Some have very convincing theories, but the truth is, nothing in scripture tells us where on a timeline this event will take place except for it being the same time as the last trumpet. 

No, scripture disagrees: ONLY those "in Christ" will be caught up at Paul's rapture. The Old Testament saints don't qualify. They will be raised "on the last day," at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. 

The huge crowd too large to number can be nothing else but the raptured church. Paul teaches us in 1 Thes. 5 that his rapture will take place just a moment before God's wrath begins:  his "sudden destruction" will be the start of God's wrath. It is also the start of the Day of the Lord. The ONLY place that fits in Revelation is a moment before the 6th seal. The crowd, too large to number, is seen in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

Perhaps you have not understood Paul. He tells us a SUDDENLY is coming - on a day like today, when people are thinking peace and safety. SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves to meet with their spirits. A moment later, Paul tells us, two groups of people get two different results: those IN CHRIST get raptures, and so ESCAPE Paul's "sudden destruction." those living in the darkness are left behind, and so cannot escape. Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - the very wrath from  no appointments will be set with His church.

I am convinced, when the dead in Christ rise, that rising will cause a great earthquake, as per Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." That earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." This is scripture - it has been here for a long time.

[simplejeff]

http://www.bibleresearch.org/prophecybook2/b2w16.html

"THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

"One of the most misunderstood topics of the Bible is the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ. Most people do not even begin to comprehend the magnitude of the events that surround this climactic event or its importance in the overall plan of God for the future of humanity. The first resurrection will undoubtedly be one of the most awesome and glorious events to ever take place, and a number of cataclysmic, earthshaking events will happen the day that Jesus returns to the earth. The following are three of these major events that directly concern the elect of God:

 

    The resurrection of the righteous dead to immortality
    The change of the living righteous to immortality
    The rewarding of the righteous for diligent effort and sacrifice

Jesus Appears in The Sky

One of the first events on this day is the gathering of the elect of God to meet Jesus in the atmosphere above the earth. As Jesus enters the earth's atmosphere and lights up the sky with his glory, the angels will begin to collect the righteous of all ages:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt.24:29-31 KJV). See also Isa.43:5-7; Mk.13:24-27; 14:62; Rev.1:7.

The Dead Rise First

In this great day, everyone who has obtained salvation will rise to meet Jesus as he enters the atmosphere. But all of the righteous who have died over the centuries will be resurrected first and will join him even before the righteous people who are still alive at his coming:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep" (1.Thes.4:13-15 KJV). See also 1.Cor.15:51-54."

[Spock]

1 hour ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

1 Peter 1:21 "

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

²² Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

²³ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

²⁴ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

²⁵ But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

 

Isaiah 40:4 "

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

⁵ And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

⁶ The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

⁷ The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

⁸ The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

 

Psalms 90:4 

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

⁵ Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

⁶ In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

⁷ For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled."

Now all of those say our flesh (the body) is like grass. But, the Rev. verse speaks of "green" grass. The green grass is healthy and good. It may even refer to newly sprouted which is the type of grass that is tender and sought after among the animals that eat it.

There are too many "green" references to list, so just look up "green" in the concordance.

 

These things came to me after I saw that the trumpets begin with the rapture. Before, I too leaned toward the thought that it was literal, but like much of the rest of Revelation - it was the words themselves and how the Bible talks about them that convinced me to look at differently. Jesus spoke in metaphors and often used "farming" and "agriculture" terms when referencing the 'faithful' and 'unfaithful', the 'obedient' and the 'disobedient'. 

It is all the "Literal-ists" (making up words here, I think) who have used there OWN interpretation to make the prophecies fit into their line of thinking. Much of what I used to accept has been altered because of this approach. Most all of prophecy is symbolic and metaphors are used all the way through history. The idea for us then is to be as close to the original meaning for every word of prophecy. God interpreted these words for us all ready, we just have to look them up in the Bible. God NEVER changes, right? Why would anyone change the meanings of these words into something else? Yeah, I know the answer.

Thanks Donkey for providing the support I asked for.

Honestly, I don’t see what you see in the passages you cited, but maybe it’s just me. 

Cheers,

spock

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, Spock said:

Honestly, I don’t see what you see in the passages you cited, but maybe it’s just me. 

First, as written,  test test test test test test everything (even all the spirits that may speak)

as Yahweh Says to test everything in His Word,  test by His Word,  and be constantly in prayer,

even for our own ideas (we think they are our own,   or not) - test test test by God's Word and always in prayer.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No, scripture disagrees: ONLY those "in Christ" will be caught up at Paul's rapture. The Old Testament saints don't qualify. They will be raised "on the last day," at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. 

The huge crowd too large to number can be nothing else but the raptured church. Paul teaches us in 1 Thes. 5 that his rapture will take place just a moment before God's wrath begins:  his "sudden destruction" will be the start of God's wrath. It is also the start of the Day of the Lord. The ONLY place that fits in Revelation is a moment before the 6th seal. The crowd, too large to number, is seen in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

Perhaps you have not understood Paul. He tells us a SUDDENLY is coming - on a day like today, when people are thinking peace and safety. SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves to meet with their spirits. A moment later, Paul tells us, two groups of people get two different results: those IN CHRIST get raptures, and so ESCAPE Paul's "sudden destruction." those living in the darkness are left behind, and so cannot escape. Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - the very wrath from  no appointments will be set with His church.

I am convinced, when the dead in Christ rise, that rising will cause a great earthquake, as per Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." That earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." This is scripture - it has been here for a long time.

Really?  Does this mean you believe that Paradise still exists today where people go and wait?  You must also disagree with 2 Corinthians 5:7-8 where we read "For we walk by faith, not by sight.  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."  I believe that our spirit goes to be with the Lord until we gain our resurrected new body at the rapture. 

[simplejeff]

16 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I believe that our spirit goes to be with the Lord until we gain our resurrected new body at the rapture. 

Yet there is not one place in Scripture like this,  where the spirit or the soul of someone is floating as if in ether/ whatever/ apart from their body,  whether earthly or dead or resurrected.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

49 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thanks Donkey for providing the support I asked for.

Honestly, I don’t see what you see in the passages you cited, but maybe it’s just me. 

Cheers,

spock

James 1 

⁹ Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

¹⁰ But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

¹¹ For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

1 Peter:1 

²³ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

²⁴ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

 

The seed represents our body which must die (born again - first by faith, then by death/rapture) in order to be made incorruptible (immortal). The rapture "burns" away (purifies) our flesh in the same way sacrifices on the altar are burnt in order to be sanctified or given over to God.