Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Revelation Man]

On 2/26/2019 at 10:47 AM, Spock said:

Ok Rev Man, here we go with those numbers.....(holding breath) 

i read what you wrote twice and I have to be honest with you, I want to see this as you say, but my mind (or heart?) is just preventing  me to do so.  So, either I just haven’t been won over yet or maybe I’m missing something, or maybe I’m not meant to accept it. Not sure which one, so let’s keep the dialog going.

This makes more sense to me:

We could say that at the end of the 1,260 days Jesus returns. At the end of the 1,290 days, Jesus’ government is officially installed. At the end of the 1,335 days the nations are judged (Matthew 25:31-46).

To me where to put the 1290 event is not as clear as the 1335 event.  The way I visualize the second coming, is that Yeshua returns after 1260 from the mid point of the week.....I am not 100% sure the AOD has to be at that midpoint. I think it is, but I’m going to say I’m not 100% sure and will look at it again. I then believe there will be a lot going on from the day Yeshua returns until the Millennial Kingdom is set up. For example, I believe the sheep and goats Judgment of Matt 25:31 will take place during this period and I know that may take some time.  Thus, I see it makes sense to add the days AFTER the Lord returns in order to accomplish the many tasks at hand.  After all, the survivors of the planet will still not know what is going on and the MK clearly can’t begin until we know who made the cut and who didn’t. That will take time.....thus the 45 days.

Having said that, I am now more open to see the two witnesses and the AOD occurring 30 days before the mid point, so that can make 1290 days till the Lord returns. I’m open to,that interpretation.  So, instead of giving the two witnesses 75 days before midpoint, give them 30.....maybe. Just thinking out loud. This way they would then die 30 days before Yeshua returns, not 75 days before. 

Okay brother, let me have it......but go easy on me, don’t forget, I’m a RETIRED teacher. ?

WOW...I answered this a couple of days ago, right after I replied to Iamlamad , because I spoke about how my Mom had been sick a couple of days and I was out of pocket for awhile, and then got the big myself. Oh well, I must not have hit the submit reply button or the internet might have been down for a few seconds. Will get back with you later...............still feeling a little down, had a virus and the toilet running type, if you know what I mean. God Bless.

[Spock]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

WOW...I answered this a couple of days ago, right after I replied to Iamlamad , because I spoke about how my Mom had been sick a couple of days and I was out of pocket for awhile, and then got the big myself. Oh well, I must not have hit the submit reply button or the internet might have been down for a few seconds. Will get back with you later...............still feeling a little down, had a virus and the toilet running type, if you know what I mean. God Bless.

You did answer it. 

[Spock]

Hey LA and any other Pre tribbers,

Besides the argument that the Church is not meant to be in the time of Jacobs trouble (only for Jews), what other conclusive evidence can you show to support the 6th seal being opened just BEFORE the peace treaty/covenant confirmation rather than occurring sometime in the first half of Daniels 70th week?  THANKS

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey LA and any other Pre tribbers,

Besides the argument that the Church is not meant to be in the time of Jacobs trouble (only for Jews), what other conclusive evidence can you show to support the 6th seal being opened just BEFORE the peace treaty/covenant confirmation rather than occurring sometime in the first half of Daniels 70th week?  THANKS

Hi Spock,

The 6th seal is from the scroll, which is the Father`s will given to the Son. I believe the seals are just a pictorial representation of what the Father has written for the Son to judge. This is all shown in the second vision of the unveiling of the Lord.

The third vision, which starts at Rev. 8: 2, reveals the Son of Man as the Exalted Mediator who is the executor of the Father`s will. It is then that the judgments begin. Remember Jesus said, "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12: 49) Only the High Priest on the Day of Atonement could throw fire & blood (from the altar) upon the earth. That is why we read of fire & blood being thrown to the earth in the tribulation. 

Know what the Lord is doing and it all becomes clear. However if one just tries and puts all the details wherever, then the whole `picture,` just becomes what ever the loudest voice, says so.

my thoughts, Marilyn.

 

 

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

  2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

He BEGINS the destruction in the trumpet judgments. Look, turning 1/3 of the sea to blood is destruction!  Please don't tell me you symbolize that too! I don't know WHY the angel threw coals from the fire down to earth. John does not tell us the meaning.  The first part OF COURSE has to do with the prayers of the saints. Perhaps the second part does too.

What do you mean by "begin"? When does it begin?

So you agree the trumpets begin with the rapture. You say the 7th vial ends the week which comes before the return of Jesus ... BUT, the vials begin at what point?

We are living in the age of Grace. For the most part, grace and judgment will not mix. Judgment will wait for the age of grace to end. It will end at the rapture and then immediately the Day of the Lord will begin. I think it begins at the 6th or 7th seal, and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

You have asked a very good question - a question John does not answer.  I personally think God will wait until the beheadings have reached a feverish peak, and then pour out the first 6 vials in one hour of time. This will effectively SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. The Beast's armies will be sitting in the dark gnawing their tongues for pain. The beheadings will end - but the 42 months will play out and end when Jesus returns.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey LA and any other Pre tribbers,

Besides the argument that the Church is not meant to be in the time of Jacobs trouble (only for Jews), what other conclusive evidence can you show to support the 6th seal being opened just BEFORE the peace treaty/covenant confirmation rather than occurring sometime in the first half of Daniels 70th week?  THANKS

John's chronology is the best argument there is.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Yes, right... some sort of resurrection always seems to coincide with an earthquake. And, there are/have been multiple resurrections. Is there an earthquake in Rev. 4 or 5? Nope.

As you said., the tribulation martyrs are included in the "first resurrection" that is associated with the 2nd coming.

Ha ha! Would you expect an earthquake in heaven, or in the throne room? That is the perspective of these two chapters.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The 70th week began at the end of the 69th week (the baptism). The cross, the baptism, the ministry of Christ, the covenant being confirmed by Jesus, are all part of the 70th week. You have also even placed the 2nd coming OUTSIDE of the 70 weeks. Jesus has NOTHING to do with this prophecy by your own interpretation. Dan. 9:27 is a continuation of verse 26 -NOT a separate NEW 70th week. There is not 70.5 weeks in the prophecy. The cross occurs midway through the 70th week. YES, there are two halves of ONE apple, NOT half an apple plus a whole apple.

You are saying the 2nd coming comes AFTER the 7th vial...

Chapter 19 starts out by saying "he has judged the great whore". 19:6 says "the Lord God reigns" - Jesus has arrived. 

Chapter 17 & 18 speak of the great whore. "She" rides on top of the Beast. The Beast is the united nations (Roman empire- ascends out of the pit -5th trumpet) - it was, is not (end of first century was no longer united), and yet is (revived today). Her "ride" is short ('about an hour', which may only be about two weeks). Nonetheless, she ONCE carried all the markings and symbolism of the "Christian Church" - Prov. 31. Therefore, the whore is revealed AFTER the rapture. Her destruction comes quickly with the 2nd woe (6th trumpet).

Now, back some more to ch. 14. This parallels chapter 7 = What does that mean? There is another rapture and another 144K Jews being marked? Of course NOT. They are tied to the SAME point on the time line = the START of the 3.5 year tribulation (5th trumpet). The grass and green things and trees are protected. (9:4). Jesus has ONLY one (1) crown, while in chapter 19 he is shown with MANY crowns - two separate events. The whore is revealed because the true "worthy" Christians are gone (Rev 14:8 & 18:2 = speak of the SAME time). The left-behind "Church" will quickly "FALL AWAY" (become reprobate). The "harvests" described here are 1) the rapture, & 2) the casting out or rejection of the "unworthy" believers into the final tribulation (3.5 years - NOT 7). Read Matt 13: 38-43 - the "furnace of fire" and "the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" (who has ears to hear, let him hear). 

The first woe is attached to the 5th trumpet, the 2nd woe the 6th - AND THEN... Rev 10:7 "in the days of the voice of the 7th angel (7th trumpet), when he shall BEGIN to sound, the mystery of God should be finished". 

The Bible says "it is finished" AT THE SAME MOMENT THAT THE 7th TRUMPET SOUNDS - No additional time added. The Vials have yet to be poured out. 

he 70th week began at the end of the 69th week (the baptism)  Not according to Daniel. He places events BETWEEN the end of the 69 and the start of the 70th. 

You have also even placed the 2nd coming OUTSIDE of the 70 weeks.  I plead innocent! I did not do this, JOHN did - I just copied John. He ends the week at the 7th vial. Then "stuff" happens in chapters 17 and 18, and the first part of chapter 19 - and THEN JEsus comes. It cannot be inside the week. It cannot be at the end of the week. It is later. I suspect it is what happens on the 1290th day.

Dan. 9:27 is a continuation of verse 26 -NOT a separate NEW 70th week.  You are trying to create a new 70th week or different one rigth after the 69th. Sorry, Daniel did not. HIS 70th week is after the city is destroyed - after 70 AD. 

The cross occurs midway through the 70th week.  MYTH: not according to scripture.

YES, there are two halves of ONE apple  It is impossible to divide half an apple and still end up with two halves.  The possibility is, we need a complete week at the end, to be divided and end up with two halves.  Make no mistake here: there WILL BE a division when the man of sin enters the temple and stops the daily sacrifices.

Chapter 19 starts out by saying "he has judged the great whore". 19:6 says "the Lord God reigns" - Jesus has arrived.  MYTH. He does not arrive until the END of chapter 19. Yes, the Lord will be reigning; the kingdoms of the world were given to him at the midpoint of the week. But He will not take PHYSICAL possession until the end of chapter 19.

Therefore, the whore is revealed AFTER the rapture. Her destruction comes quickly with the 2nd woe (6th trumpet).  Sorry, but just more nonsense. JOHN has the whore being destroyed in chapters 17 & 18. Stop jumping the gun!  The whore is the city of Jerusalem and the Beast and False Prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from there. No other false religion has ever come close. ONLY those whose names are written in heaven will not be deceived. They will be in Jerusalem deceiving the world for MOST of the last half of the week. Yes, OF COURSE it will be after the rapture - which will come before any part of the week.

They are tied to the SAME point on the time line = the START of the 3.5 year tribulation (5th trumpet)  Where on earth do you come up with this stuff? Do you have any respect for John's God given chronology? You are miles off in your logic. Read closely and learn something:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong!

What does that mean? It means after chapter 5, anything in a given chapter will take place AFTER events in previous chapters and BEFORE events in later chapters. I can't think of a single exception except some parentheses that are not a part of chronology, and some verses given as prophecy, such as some in chapter 14. Rev. 14:8 is PROPHECY, FORETELLING the demise of "Babylon" or the city of Jerusalem.  It does not happen UNTIL chapters 17 & 18 - but it begins with the HUGE earthquake at the 7th vial. 

The "harvests" described here are 1) the rapture  WRONG! The rapture of the church is by this time HISTORY. This is prophecy of the harvest of the beheaded (the righteous) and the death  of the wicked at Armageddon and at the parable of the tares, including the sheep and goat judgment. 

WHAT is "finished" at the 7th trumpet? It seems you don't know.  It is the reign of Satan as the god of this world. THAT is what is finished. The WEEK continues on for another 3.5 years.

Sorry, but you and I seem to disagree on almost every point. Why is that? It is because you disagree with John.

I do give you great effort for trying. Most people won't even read Revelation.

Edited March 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are living in the age of Grace. For the most part, grace and judgment will not mix. Judgment will wait for the age of grace to end. It will end at the rapture and then immediately the Day of the Lord will begin. I think it begins at the 6th or 7th seal, and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

You have asked a very good question - a question John does not answer.  I personally think God will wait until the beheadings have reached a feverish peak, and then pour out the first 6 vials in one hour of time. This will effectively SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. The Beast's armies will be sitting in the dark gnawing their tongues for pain. The beheadings will end - but the 42 months will play out and end when Jesus returns.

So you agree that everything happens in the 3.5 year time frame. 

Now, where is the first half of your 7 years? 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ha ha! Would you expect an earthquake in heaven, or in the throne room? That is the perspective of these two chapters.

The point is others will say these chapters depict the rapture, but Scripture seems to mention earthquakes in association with that type of event. "Come up here" is often misrepresented as a 'rapture' reference, but is not supported by Scripture.