Dealing with divine hiddeness

[Phillnb25]

TL;DR Why doesn't God reveal himself to humanity in a stronger, more conclusive way?

Hey fam! 

So I think it's time to do my first post so I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong spot.  I wanna discuss with everyone the whole idea of argument from non-belief (a.k.a "divine hiddeness".)

So this can be simplified as:

1. If God exists (the greatest possible being), then God is all-good.

2. If God is all-good, then God is perfectly loving.

3. So if God exists, then God is perfectly loving.

4. But a perfectly loving God would ensure everyone is always able to be in relationship with God just by trying.

 5. And that ability requires belief that God exists.

6. So, if God exists, then God would ensure all believe.

7. So, if God exists, all persons believe God exists.

8. But not everyone believes that. 9. So no God has ensured everyone believes it.

10. So no God has ensured everyone is able to be in such relationship just by trying.

11. So no perfectly loving God exists. 12. So no all-good God exists.

13. So God does not exist.

This has always been troubling to me because growing up I've always read stories of people like Moses, Elijah, and even John the Baptist...etc that had first hand experiences and/or conversations with God. God seemed to make himself very evident between 1500 bce to the mid first century ad. After that God seemed in directly interact with humans less and less until today where human/God interaction seems almost non existent. I understand the counter argument of free will but if someone is actively seeking God, why does he seem so elusive? Let's start here and see if we can reason through this together ??

 

[Who me]

item 4 is false.

Why should God, who gave us the ability to chose limit that ability so we could chose only the 'good'.

That is making us into robots. As this line is false the reasoning that follows from it is also false.

 

The evidence for God is all around us, all of creation speaks of him and of his love.

There is no scientific evidence that supports atheism. It is only that people will not believe, that they love darlness rather than light that they don't believe.

[AnOrangeCat]

You might want to check out Jayne's post in this thread.

I think the same reasoning applies. The early appearances were for the sake of legitimacy and planting the seeds of faith that have grown into what they are today. Also consider the story of Thomas. Other disciples had told him Jesus had been resurrected. Thomas was skeptical, and when he finally did run into Jesus, what did Jesus say? "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

This is a call for faith and a blessing for having it. If God's voice boomed from the heavens to give instruction then it would greatly diminish the element of faith. When we look at the big picture, the Bible as a whole, faith is clearly prized.

Another thing to consider is the story of the rich young man in Matthew 19. He was seeking God and Jesus told him how he could do that, but the rich young man didn't like it very much. Similarly there are things in our lives that can impede our relationship with God. Often we'll be dealt with about these things. It falls to us to correct the issues.

We also need to consider that even in the Old Testament God speaks through others. Did God directly speak to Moses? Yes. But it was Moses who communicated what God had to say to the Israelites. The disciples walked with Jesus Himself, but they're the ones who communicated so much of what they experienced and learned to others. The messages spoken of by Jesus and the disciples are still being communicated today. Similarly God does sometimes give people insight on what to say to others.

Think about some of the miracles in the Bible. For instance, the daughter of Jairus who was dead, but raised by Jesus. That was a single family's issue. But we know of it today because it was recorded in writings that have existed for thousands of years. This is the case with all the other instances in the Bible. I have no doubt that God still does intervene in ways that are sometimes subtle and sometimes more profound, like people being cured of cancer or other illnesses. But it's up to us to share these stories with others.

Edited March 29, 2019 by AnOrangeCat
My cat posted for me before I was entirely finished!

[Phillnb25]

7 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

You might want to check out Jayne's post in this thread.

I think the same reasoning applies. The early appearances were for the sake of legitimacy and planting the seeds of faith that have grown into what they are today. Also consider the story of Thomas. Other disciples had told him Jesus had been resurrected. Thomas was skeptical, and when he finally did run into Jesus, what did Jesus say? "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

This is a call for faith and a blessing for having it. If God's voice boomed from the heavens to give instruction then it would greatly diminish the element of faith. When we look at the big picture, the Bible as a whole, faith is clearly prized.

Another thing to consider is the story of the rich young man in Matthew 19. He was seeking God and Jesus told him how he could do that, but the rich young man didn't like it very much. Similarly there are things in our lives that can impede our relationship with God. Often we'll be dealt with about these things. It falls to us to correct the issues.

We also need to consider that even in the Old Testament God speaks through others. Did God directly speak to Moses? Yes. But it was Moses who communicated what God had to say to the Israelites. The disciples walked with Jesus Himself, but they're the ones who communicated so much of what they experienced and learned to others. The messages spoken of by Jesus and the disciples are still being communicated today. Similarly God does sometimes give people insight on what to say to others.

Think about some of the miracles in the Bible. For instance, the daughter of Jairus who was dead, but raised by Jesus. That was a single family's issue. But we know of it today because it was recorded in writings that have existed for thousands of years. This is the case with all the other instances in the Bible. I have no doubt that God still does intervene in ways that are sometimes subtle and sometimes more profound, like people being cured of cancer or other illnesses. But it's up to us to share these stories with others.

Thanks for that thread! I'll definitely check it out today.  The argument from non belief isn't necessarily about miracles,  its more about someone seeking God and not being able to find him. I can agree that we shouldn't doubt that God still intervenes today, but if someone is honestly trying to find him why wouldn't he help  and just reveal himself to said person?

[Phillnb25]

7 hours ago, Who me said:

item 4 is false.

Why should God, who gave us the ability to chose limit that ability so we could chose only the 'good'.

That is making us into robots. As this line is false the reasoning that follows from it is also false.

I wouldn't say number 4 is false right out of the gate. It's not saying that God would force everyone into a relationship with him, just that anyone seeking a relationship with him would find one.  People still have their free will to choose to want that relationship. 

[AnOrangeCat]

3 hours ago, Phillnb25 said:

Thanks for that thread! I'll definitely check it out today.  The argument from non belief isn't necessarily about miracles,  its more about someone seeking God and not being able to find him. I can agree that we shouldn't doubt that God still intervenes today, but if someone is honestly trying to find him why wouldn't he help  and just reveal himself to said person?

Yeah, I get you about going from the perspective of an unbeliever. I just think that some similar reasons come into play for why God can seem hidden sometimes and why miracles might not seem so spectacular or widespread anymore. To add to it a little more, looking at the Bible there are traits and attitudes God wants to encourage in people. Faith is one trait, but patience is another. And when it comes to an unbeliever there can also be problems with them just not being familiar with God's voice. If you read and listen to a lot of testimonies of people who converted to Christianity you'll find a solid mix of people who had to wait and people who had powerful moments leading to their conversion.

[Tzephanyahu]

On 3/29/2019 at 8:31 AM, Phillnb25 said:

I wanna discuss with everyone the whole idea of argument from non-belief (a.k.a "divine hiddeness".)

Shalom Phill,

Great question and thank you for asking it on behalf of others who may also think the same!

The argument, with the points ranging from 1 to 13, make a number of assumptions and so reach an incorrect conclusion.  The error it makes is called "complicated equivalence", in which points are made on matters that are without measure or standard, other than themselves.  Let me explain it a little clearer and forgive my brief responses. They are not against you, but how I would argue against them:

 

1. If God exists (the greatest possible being), then God is all-good.

What is your definition of "all-good"? Is it as it is understand today? In the culture of the UK in 2019, America in 1950, or perhaps in Japan in 1800? 

2. If God is all-good, then God is perfectly loving.

Why does all-good mean perfectly loving? Can't a fruit tree be all-good yet not loving?  What is the definition of "perfect loving"?  Is it the way an Atheist man understands it at the age of 20, 40, or perhaps 60 years old?

3. So if God exists, then God is perfectly loving.

God's existence doesn't mean that He then needs to conform to man's idea of "perfectly loving"?  These are two separate issues.

4. But a perfectly loving God would ensure everyone is always able to be in relationship with God just by trying.

Not necessarily. Who are you to reason what a loving God would or would not do? Which school or university teaches such things? Can such a thing be learned in one man's lifetime?  Why could He not choose those He wishes? Are you to correct Him on what "perfect love" is with your limited wisdom and few experiences?

 5. And that ability requires belief that God exists.

I didn't really get this one, sorry  

6. So, if God exists, then God would ensure all believe.

Not so. His existence doesn't mean that He needs to ensure all believe. Could He not say "I exist. Those who know - know, those who don't - won't"?  He doesn't have to ensure anything because He exists. Rather it's us to ensure we believe. 

7. So, if God exists, all persons believe God exists.

Logically incorrect. Before Jupiter was discovered, did it not exist?  Someone or something's existence is not validated by all people's belief in it. It's a fact, regardless of how many do or do not know.

8. But not everyone believes that.

Yeah, true story

9. So no God has ensured everyone believes it.

God has no command set over Him that He needs to ensure everyone believes. There is no authority over Him to ensure He does anything, except His own Word.

10. So no God has ensured everyone is able to be in such relationship just by trying.

Yet, He has held His arms open to us for so long and given us ALL a way to get to Him through His Son.  It's hard to find many in the world that doesn't know of His gift, yet many despise it.

11. So no perfectly loving God exists.  12. So no all-good God exists. 13. So God does not exist.

Complicated equivalence.

 

I hope that helps you see what I mean brother. It's a question of perspective.  Because whoever gave you this line of reasoning is assuming they have reached a place where they understand:

• God
• Demands of His Existence
• Perfect Love
• Jobs of being Perfectly Loving

However old a man is when he thinks he understands all of the above, is still just a boy.  Even if that boy was 80 years old and well schooled in all philosophy and world wisdom - can we then say "Yes, this man can challenge Godly matters and concerns and understands perfect love".  No, of course not.  So, inevitably that man will win his line of questioning with its complicated equivalence and his "wisdom" has become foolishness as he becomes an accuser of God and His methods.

It is all summarised in this amazing verse in which Yahweh says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares Yahweh. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." ~ Isaiah 55:8-9

But I love your questioning mind. Keep asking questions, always.  Don't ever try to live up to others and appear settled. If you have nagging questions or areas you are stuck on, post them so that they might help another.  So, again, great job brother!  

You might also find some further help in this story which concerns this matter: Meet Bertrand

Love & Shalom

[seeking the lost]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:31 AM, Phillnb25 said:

Why doesn't God reveal himself to humanity in a stronger, more conclusive way?

Great question.  Have you considered Romans 1:18-20  The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

A text from Hebrew Scripture.

Deuteronomy 4:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. 29 But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the Lord your God and obey him.

It is the very nature of God to reveal Himself to all.  This is one of the attributes of God, self-revelatory.

[Phillnb25]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:04 PM, AnOrangeCat said:

To add to it a little more, looking at the Bible there are traits and attitudes God wants to encourage in people. Faith is one trait, but patience is another

That's true! It just makes it hard,  especially in today's society where everybody wants everything now haha

[Phillnb25]

17 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

17 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom Phill,

Great question and thank you for asking it on behalf of others who may also think the same!

The argument, with the points ranging from 1 to 13, make a number of assumptions and so reach an incorrect conclusion.  The error it makes is called "complicated equivalence", in which points are made on matters that are without measure or standard, other than themselves.  Let me explain it a little clearer and forgive my brief responses. They are not against you, but how I would argue against them:

 

1. If God exists (the greatest possible being), then God is all-good.

What is your definition of "all-good"? Is it as it is understand today? In the culture of the UK in 2019, America in 1950, or perhaps in Japan in 1800? 

2. If God is all-good, then God is perfectly loving.

Why does all-good mean perfectly loving? Can't a fruit tree be all-good yet not loving?  What is the definition of "perfect loving"?  Is it the way an Atheist man understands it at the age of 20, 40, or perhaps 60 years old?

3. So if God exists, then God is perfectly loving.

God's existence doesn't mean that He then needs to conform to man's idea of "perfectly loving"?  These are two separate issues.

4. But a perfectly loving God would ensure everyone is always able to be in relationship with God just by trying.

Not necessarily. Who are you to reason what a loving God would or would not do? Which school or university teaches such things? Can such a thing be learned in one man's lifetime?  Why could He not choose those He wishes? Are you to correct Him on what "perfect love" is with your limited wisdom and few experiences?

 5. And that ability requires belief that God exists.

I didn't really get this one, sorry  

6. So, if God exists, then God would ensure all believe.

Not so. His existence doesn't mean that He needs to ensure all believe. Could He not say "I exist. Those who know - know, those who don't - won't"?  He doesn't have to ensure anything because He exists. Rather it's us to ensure we believe. 

7. So, if God exists, all persons believe God exists.

Logically incorrect. Before Jupiter was discovered, did it not exist?  Someone or something's existence is not validated by all people's belief in it. It's a fact, regardless of how many do or do not know.

8. But not everyone believes that.

Yeah, true story

9. So no God has ensured everyone believes it.

God has no command set over Him that He needs to ensure everyone believes. There is no authority over Him to ensure He does anything, except His own Word.

10. So no God has ensured everyone is able to be in such relationship just by trying.

Yet, He has held His arms open to us for so long and given us ALL a way to get to Him through His Son.  It's hard to find many in the world that doesn't know of His gift, yet many despise it.

11. So no perfectly loving God exists.  12. So no all-good God exists. 13. So God does not exist.

Complicated equivalence.

 

I hope that helps you see what I mean brother. It's a question of perspective.  Because whoever gave you this line of reasoning is assuming they have reached a place where they understand:

• God
• Demands of His Existence
• Perfect Love
• Jobs of being Perfectly Loving

However old a man is when he thinks he understands all of the above, is still just a boy.  Even if that boy was 80 years old and well schooled in all philosophy and world wisdom - can we then say "Yes, this man can challenge Godly matters and concerns and understands perfect love".  No, of course not.  So, inevitably that man will win his line of questioning with its complicated equivalence and his "wisdom" has become foolishness as he becomes an accuser of God and His methods.

It is all summarised in this amazing verse in which Yahweh says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares Yahweh. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." ~ Isaiah 55:8-9

But I love your questioning mind. Keep asking questions, always.  Don't ever try to live up to others and appear settled. If you have nagging questions or areas you are stuck on, post them so that they might help another.  So, again, great job brother!  

You might also find some further help in this story which concerns this matter: Meet Bertrand

Love & Shalom

Thanks for the detailed response! No idea why my text is red now....lol but anyways.

That's is a great break down 9f the argument.  I think its human nature to try to apply physical aspects to a non physical being. Anyways this helps me with my some of my issues and definitely will give me food for thought! Thanks again and hope to see you in another thread soon!