Are these the twelve last shepherds in Israel ?

[Shilohsfoal]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You could all "the love of many growing cold as a "falling away," but Matthew did not put it on those words. Neither did Jesus say it as a departure from faith. 
If you insist that Paul's meaning is a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) then in context the falling away is the same thing as the restrainer being taken out of the way. I don't think so. 

No one can deny: for the man of sin to be revealed as he is in verse 3b, the one restraining has to be taken out of the way in 3a to allow him to be revealed.  For you then, the falling away must be the restrainer taken out of the way.

So what do you believe you are restraining? 

If you couldn't retain Nero, Hitler or Lenin, what makes you think you will restain someone else as powerful as them? 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[R. Hartono]

On 9/18/2020 at 2:33 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

If you couldn't retain Nero, Hitler or Lenin, what makes you think you will restain someone else as powerful as them? 

They did not declare themselves as God and didnt kill those who refuse to worship them, they didnt rule the whole world either.

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

They did not declare themselves as God and didnt kill those who refuse to worship them, they didnt rule the whole world either.

No, they just did what they wanted. Just like the son of perdition. 

And you wont stop him because that power was given him from above. God makes kingdoms great and he appoints kings and he also tears them down and destroys them. 

[iamlamad]

On 9/17/2020 at 2:33 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

So what do you believe you are restraining? 

If you couldn't retain Nero, Hitler or Lenin, what makes you think you will restain someone else as powerful as them? 

Exactly what is specified: the revealing of the man of sin. It is the Holy Spirit working through the church. Remember, Paul said, "and now you know what [who] is restraining..."

[iamlamad]

On 9/21/2020 at 6:24 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

No, they just did what they wanted. Just like the son of perdition. 

And you wont stop him because that power was given him from above. God makes kingdoms great and he appoints kings and he also tears them down and destroys them. 

In context, only ONE THING is being held back: the revealing of the man of sin. God wants that to happen at a very specific time.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

paul seems to teach a tribulation rapture in 2 thess 1.7 where he ask all believers to wait with them until Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels -  starting at 2.1 paul say that if you believe Jesus comes to gather his elect happens before the falling away and the man of sin who Jesus destroys at his coming you've been deceived - the man of sin in ruling when Jesus comes with his saints.

the pre trib rapture would be before this no?

"Falling away" is a very poor translation that does not fit the context. Notice in verse 3b, the man of sin IS revealed; therefore in 3a the restrainer must be "taken out of the way." The gathering fits "taken out of the way" much better than a falling away. So the departing (apostasia) must come first (the rapture), then the man of sin will be revealed, and then all who were left behind will know, the Day of the Lord has started and they are in it. 

This matches perfect with Paul's first letter, where the rapture seems to be the trigger for the start of the Day. Where in Revelation? Where does the DAy of the Lord begin? At the 6th seal.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

really?  have you not followed where the pope was pushing for a one world government and one world religion? he wanted the government because of climate change and the religions well.... you know

That may well be so, but the Beast of Revelation is going to Jerusalem, not the vatican.

[iamlamad]

30 minutes ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

lol but did you stop to think Where the beast comes from is more meaningful to know first

What difference will it make where he comes from? It is what he does (or will do) when he arrives in Jerusalem that is written. I personally don't think he is in any way associated with the Vatican. I rather think he will be a Muslim. 

Israel is not surrounded by Catholics; they are surrounded  by Muslims. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

34 minutes ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

the falling away is what happens to some believers in the last days and then the man of sin comes - taken out of the way i dont believe this refers to the saints being raptured

First, the gathering (rapture) is the theme of the passage. If not found in the passage, wouldn't that be silly? 

Next, did you ever look up what STrong's has to say about the compound word: apostasia?

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

"of separation

of local separation, 

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole

where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place "

 

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

Did you ever wonder why Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."  ?

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

really?  have you not followed where the pope was pushing for a one world government and one world religion? he wanted the government because of climate change and the religions well.... you know

OK, where is catholics in Revelation. Do show us. 

Islam and Judaism too if you know where they are. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Shilohsfoal