Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Not all the tap-dancing embellishment in the world will change the simple truth.  Stay awake and be ready.  Everything else will work itself out according to the will of God. 

No tap dancing, no embellishment. Just simple truth from scripture. Jesus could come TOMORROW or tonight. I agree with "Be ready." Many who call themselves "Christian" will be left behind.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

However, the testimony of the two angels does.  There's no need to complicate something so simply stated.  The return of Jesus, when we are gathered to Him, takes place on the last day when the last trumpet sounds.  To expand a little on the previous quote:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

When Jesus returns, He will appear in the clouds and then descend to earth, just like the angels said.  His ascension took place in one day, and so will His return.  The one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

You are still trying to force two comings into one: square peg in round hole. It does not work, for countless reasons. 

There is nothing in Either book of Thes. that shows Him returning to the ground at that time. John 14 shows us He will return to heaven with His church.  There is no hint that anyone will see Him. How could they if He is in a cloud? Paul's timing is just before wrath. Matthew 24 timing is after the tribulation of those days. Therefore these two comings must be over 7 years part. 

Agreed, In Revelation 19 coming He WILL descend just as He once ascended. But it is not going to be at His 1 Thes. 4 coming. 

Show us explicitly step by step how any member of the church is going to get to the marriage and supper in heaven. Be clear. 

Show us explicitly step by step how Jesus is going to find any sheep in natural bodies for the sheep and goat judgment.

[ENOCH2010]

Where is it in the Bible that says there is going to be a marriage supper in heaven (period). 

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are still trying to force two comings into one: square peg in round hole. It does not work, for countless reasons. 

There is nothing in Either book of Thes. that shows Him returning to the ground at that time. John 14 shows us He will return to heaven with His church.  There is no hint that anyone will see Him. How could they if He is in a cloud? Paul's timing is just before wrath. Matthew 24 timing is after the tribulation of those days. Therefore these two comings must be over 7 years part. 

Agreed, In Revelation 19 coming He WILL descend just as He once ascended. But it is not going to be at His 1 Thes. 4 coming. 

Show us explicitly step by step how any member of the church is going to get to the marriage and supper in heaven. Be clear. 

Show us explicitly step by step how Jesus is going to find any sheep in natural bodies for the sheep and goat judgment.

There is no support for two comings.  No scripture talks about the returns of Jesus.  Such is the doctrine of men.  Read Acts 1:9-11.  That verse states very plainly how Jesus will return.  Don't complicate it.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 describes the Rapture of the faithful, with them being taken up in clouds. It says nothing about Jesus returning to earth at that time. The aftermath of the Church's ascent to heaven, which ascent takes place "immediately after" the heavenly signs and earthly conflagrations of Rev. 6's 6th Seal = Matthew 24:29, is shown in Rev. 7:9-17, where the Raptured saints are standing before the heavenly throne.

I agree the verse cited does describe an event...

 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

...but there is no 'when' here. Then when part is supposition in relation to the end of the age. The only 'when' we have here is; When the Lord descends with a shout and the trump of God the gathering occurs. There is no 'when' for the time of the descent of the Lord from heaven to the clouds of the air. 

Even though no specific language exist that says. "Jesus returns to earth at this time.", nothing forbids it either. In fact the sense of the passage says Jesus does come to earth. He descends from heaven to the atmosphere. That is very close to home even though we see from this passage the resurrected dead and the translated living meet Him in the air. Intellectual honesty compels us to avoid a conclusion of Jesus feet touching the earth, or not, from the evidence of 1 Thess 4:14-17.

From your reply I assume you are of the mind seals 1-5 are opened.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Only after the remainder of the Seals, then Trumpets, and then Bowls have been manifested does Jesus RETURN to earth to fight against the assembly of the Beast, False Prophet, and the rebellious nations of the earth. This same order to events occurred in the Exodus, and again in David's and Solomon's day, is shown in my blogs:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

But to repeat: the Parousia/presence of the Lord in world affairs begins at His coming in the clouds, and continues from that time forth. Just as it did during the Exodus, when the LORD's presence was continuous throughout the whole period from His descent upon Mount Sinai all the way up through the 40 years in the wilderness and then the subsequent conquest of Canaan.

It must be that you think the 6th seal begins the week, or whatever you see as the time period following the 6th seal. But it doesn't work. The 7th trumpet signals the beginning of wrath. The 6th seal is the sign of the coming of the Lord and wrath begins after this and after the gathering. So it's right after the signs of the 6th seal and just before wrath begins the 7th trumpet is blown and we are gathered. 

Revelation is not a strict chronology. Independently the seals, trumps, and vials are consecutive but the seals and trumps occur mostly concurrently as a group. It's not a one for one, they occur in the same time frame up to the moment of Jesus return at the herald of the 6th seal. After that the 7th trump sounds, Jesus descends from heaven, we are gathered, and wrath begins. 

There is a period of time before the coming of the Lord in Matt 24 directly related to the end of the age and which time span and events are seen by all mankind alive at the time of the coming of the Lord. This is the time of the seals and trumps and is not the time of wrath, which only comes after Jesus descends. 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Where is it in the Bible that says there is going to be a marriage supper in heaven (period). 

"Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” "

This is all I see. No location. But since it seems many Rev 19-21 events take place on earth then the marriage supper probably does as well.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is nothing in Either book of Thes. that shows Him returning to the ground at that time.

It's not forbidden either. No explicit statement either way. No conclusion can be drawn from lack of evidence. But it fits your personal story so you run with it.

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John 14 shows us He will return to heaven with His church. 

Maybe. You make the assumption it's in heaven.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”"

Nothing here speaks to a location other than the idea of where Jesus is, there we will be also. That could literally be anywhere since no location is given. There is a great deal of spiritual truth as well as spiritual perspective and existence in this statement by the Lord. It's not conclusive He was speaking of a particular location. This could be speaking to the moment of Jesus return to the clouds on the air, that's a receiving us to Him that where He is (clouds in the air) we will be with Him. 

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

There is no hint that anyone will see Him. How could they if He is in a cloud? Paul's timing is just before wrath. Matthew 24 timing is after the tribulation of those days. Therefore these two comings must be over 7 years part. 

That's not quite true is it? Paul's timing is just before wrath, Matt 24 timing is after GT, which is also just before wrath. Therefore the timing of both agree. Hence wrath only comes after GT and the gathering only occurs just before wrath; which means the gathering is only after the A of D and GT, and not before.

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed, In Revelation 19 coming He WILL descend just as He once ascended. But it is not going to be at His 1 Thes. 4 coming. 

Huh... so Jesus will not descend from heaven to the clouds in the air? Clearly He does.

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Show us explicitly step by step how any member of the church is going to get to the marriage and supper in heaven. Be clear. 

Show us explicitly step by step how Jesus is going to find any sheep in natural bodies for the sheep and goat judgment.

Gotta find relevant meaningful challenges, dude. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” "

This is all I see. No location. But since it seems many Rev 19-21 events take place on earth then the marriage supper probably does as well.

Sorry, but chapter 19 begins in heaven with the first verse. Jesus does not descend until after the marriage and supper. Posttribbers have to rearrange John's order to make their theory fit. It is not necessary to rearrange Revelation. It is in perfect order for the way these things will happen. 

Don't forget my axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. 

I have added another one: Any theory that does not understand that the book gets opened in Rev. 8 after the 7 seals are opened showing that the trumpet judgments are what is written inside the book will probably be a theory in error from chapter 8 on. 

This proves that it is impossible that any trumpet judgment aligns in time with any seal. Seals must come first so that the book can be opened. 

By the way, you missed something: "7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

When it is time for the marriage supper, we can know that the marriage is already finished. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

There is no support for two comings.  No scripture talks about the returns of Jesus.  Such is the doctrine of men.  Read Acts 1:9-11.  That verse states very plainly how Jesus will return.  Don't complicate it.

You said that wrong. Why do you or anyone else need one scripture that speaks of returns - plural - when we have many scriptures speaking of a return, and they show us two different returns; one where Jesus comes to the air and remains in a cloud, and another scripture that shows us He will return to the homes He has built for us. Then there are other scriptures that show us He is coming to fight at Armageddon. 

Agreed: Acts 1 shows us how He will come for that particular coming; but 1 Thes. 4 shows us how He will come at a different coming; remaining in the air and not touching down.  Maybe you have not realized this, but forcing two comings into one causes far more problems than it solves.

[Uriah]

iamlamad --- "There is no hint that anyone will see Him. How could they if He is in a cloud?"

This is how...

Because of God's stoning (Rev.8:8)

 

Water and material will be ejected into space.

 

 

This accounts for the darkness etc. Because of charged particles from the sun accumulating in/on this cloud as it surrounds the Earth and interacts with its magnetic field...

 

 

The charges will build until the whole thing reaches into the atmosphere and the sky rolls up like a scroll. 

 

Then, just as we elsewhere in the solar system, the charged plasma can can collect in alignment with the sun.

 

So, as it says in Rev., they will want to hide from the FACE of the one sitting on the throne. "Behold, he cometh in the clouds and every eye shall see Him." "They shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven." "like lightning" (which is also plasma)

Edited March 27, 2020 by Uriah