Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

And yet the people of God are not appointed to wrath. Unless it's part of the story. 

"Oops, we have a plot hole." 

Correction: those left behind at the pretrib rapture set their own appointments with His wrath.
Those that are ready are caught up just before wrath begins. No holes.

[Diaste]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Correction: those left behind at the pretrib rapture set their own appointments with His wrath.
Those that are ready are caught up just before wrath begins. No holes.

Not true. You have the two witnesses in the wrath of God. They were sent by God and it's doubtful God sent them to His wrath. Unless you have some scriptural support.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I've only ever found the return of Christ in the singular.  It's never the returns of Christ or the comings of Christ.  The SINGULAR return of Jesus is patterned after His ascension as it says in Acts 1.

• They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

As far as I'm concerned, It doesn't get any more straightforward than that.  People who try to make that verse say more than what it says deceive themselves.

It's very simple: the many verses that speak of His return cannot all be about one return. What the scriptures show us is that He comes next time ONLY to the air, where the Bride of Christ is caught up into the air, and then escorted to the homes He has built for us in glory.  He may not even be seen in this coming, for it is written that He is in a cloud.  The 3rd time He comes every eye will see Him. He will come when it is dark, and be seen as lightning flashing across the sky. As is written, "every eye will see Him." He will come this to to fight the battle of Armageddon. And this time He will come to stay. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have been hearing this for nearly 40 years. In vain I searched for the proof and found none.

I would like to see irrefutable evidence for this that specifically separates any of the scriptures referring to the 2nd coming into two events years apart.

If there was irrefutable evidence, there would be no disagreements. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:50 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, maybe it is a good thing, that this thread has pretty much died. However, I feel a bit disappointed, that iIamlamad sort of invited me, if not challenged me to respond to something on my position that had some specifics. He said:

He is not obligated to  refute me (though if that is possible, it is welcomed) nor to agree with me (I would not hold my breath for that) nor even to acknowledge that I might have even made one tiny little point that was interesting, if not valid or reasonable. It would have at least been nice to see a "Thank you for responding" or something, since I did so at his request. My response was back in April of 2019. It is never too late, but, it is also ok to let this thread die too!

I am sorry I did not respond. Sometimes, I lose track of threads. I will go back and look.

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If there was irrefutable evidence, there would be no disagreements. 

Ha! Solid evidence to some is rumor and innuendo to others. 

If you cannot present solid evidence then why do you stand on it as truth?

[Diaste]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It's very simple: the many verses that speak of His return cannot all be about one return. What the scriptures show us is that He comes next time ONLY to the air, where the Bride of Christ is caught up into the air, and then escorted to the homes He has built for us in glory.  He may not even be seen in this coming, for it is written that He is in a cloud.  The 3rd time He comes every eye will see Him. He will come when it is dark, and be seen as lightning flashing across the sky. As is written, "every eye will see Him." He will come this to to fight the battle of Armageddon. And this time He will come to stay. 

so its impossible that the several witnesses that speak to that coming are not witness to different aspects of the same event?

There is a remarkable lack of evidence for multiple comings of any shade of gray. 

[iamlamad]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:00 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, I am reasonably sure (about 100%) that I have never claimed that I can pinpoint the point in time, how would I do that? The Bible does not say, so why would I?

I do think, that  when Jesus was asked in Matt 24, and parallel passages, that he responded to a question or questions, about chronology. He gave a chronological and detailed answer. They asked: "WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of Your coming (not comings) and of the end of the age?"

Jesus answer was VERY chonological as evidenced by the number of times, that He used words like "then", "at that time", "immediatly after" etc. However, what the Bible had not declared, is when it time, He will return, nor does it say He will return twice, or that there is a rapture before the tribulation. You know it, I know it and no one on this forum has ever produced a scripture or passage that says that there is a catching up before the great tribulation of of Matt 24. Show me otherwise, and I will be the first to congratulate you on your excellent ability to discover verses that I was unable to find.

Seems to me therefore, since it is you making the claim that there is a pre-trib rapture, then it is up to you to show us where that is in scripture, instead of where you are filling the gaps with your creative imaginings. What we generally get from people who take the pre-trib position, is a bunch of inferrences, which they cannot prove the validity of, except in their own minds and the minds of like minded people.

Now, the Bible does produce dates, from time to time, in an indirect but eventually testable fashion, like the coming of Messiah related to the time prophecy of years from the going forth of the decree to rebuilt the temple. However, we do not have anything like that, to go by, at the moment. People have tried, but so far they have failed. I recall, for example, when Hal Lindsey predicted the rapture would be in 1988. His "reasoning was, that  since the nation is Israel was re-established in 1948, and that a generation in the Bible (according to Hal) is 40 years, and that Jesus said "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"  that 1948 plus 40 years gets 1988.  Nice try Hal!

Jack Van Impe, Harold Camping, etc. People should not be predicting a date or a when, if the Bible does not declare such, unless they are claiming to be a prophet of God. In such cases, when the fail, they should admit it, repent, and stop trying to predict such things.

I have noted over the years, that it is primarily pre-tribbers (only a hanful thankfully) that attempt to set dates. Ironically, it is also usually pre-tribbers, who say post-trib can't be right, because once the tribulation starts, or more specifically one the sign that Jesus said to watch for in the middle of the 7 years, you would be able to count the days until His return. That would almost be a respectible argument, if Jesus had ever actually said that we would not know day. He never said such a thing, He only said that no one knew 2000 years ago, not that now would ever know.

 

WHAT will be the sign of Your coming (not comings) and of the end of the age?"  The Gentile church of today did not exist then. They were going from Old Testament scriptures. All they knew was one coming when Israel's enemies would be destroyed. 

However, what the Bible had not declared, is when it time, He will return, nor does it say He will return twice, or that there is a rapture before the tribulation. You know it, I know it and no one on this forum has ever produced a scripture or passage that says that there is a catching up before the great tribulation of of Matt 24  Now you have gone too far. I will agree that there is no "a scripture" that says what you say. But why do we go by "a scripture" when we have a mulitude of end times scriptures, some pointed to the Gentile church of today, while others point to the JEws and the end of THEIR age. Why on earth would anyone require a single scripture to prove something? EVERY LAST WORD in the bible is HIS WORD (in the original scripts) and is to be believed. 

Case in Point: Paul writing to GENTILES in Thes. was writing to Gentile believers who were a part of the same body of Christ we belong to.  

End times scriptures are pointed to THREE different groups: the church, the Jews (all descendants of Jacob) and the nations. Mix up which group a scripture is pointed to and nonsense is the result. Paul was not writing to the Jews or to Israel. Matthew in chapter 24 was not specifically speaking to the church of today. Jesus was answering questions about the Jews and the end of THEIR age. Don't just take my word for it, understand that when Jesus mentioned the abomination, that is pointed straight at the 70th week of Daniel ( for HIS people) and the event that will divide the week.  If someone reads Matthew 24 with the church in mind, they are already headed down the wrong road. Paul's rapture is the the Gentile CHURCH of today, and has nothing to do with Israel. But if people mix these scriptures up, they can make the bible say most anything.

It is a mistake in thinking to imagine a verse for the rapture, pointed to the church, and then in the same verse the days of GT, for that period of time is pointed to the Jews. Think about it!

Next, what do you mean by "great tribulation?" Perhaps you mean the last half of the 70th week because Jesus said:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21 For then shall be great tribulation,

Next, If you really wish to know, study 1 Thes. 5 where Paul writes of the TIMING of his rapture. Did y0u not notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, just 3 verses after his famous catching up verse? Now why would Paul do that? It is simple, the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. There will be no time between. As Paul wrote, while those in Christ are being caught up, at the same time those left behind are being caught in "sudden destruction." That destruction will be a worldwide earthquake caused when God resurrects the dead in Christ. Remember those words in Matthew 27:  "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened?" This verse sets a precedent, that when God raises the dead, there will be a corresponding earthquake.  This makes good logical sense: the particles that once made up those bodies could be scattered over a huge area. But in one instant of time God will bring those particles together and form that body once again. It will be the SAME BODY, but then as it is resurrected it will be changed to a resurrection body that will never die.

We are not done yet. Where in Revelation do we find the start of the Day of the Lord? Of course at the 6th seal. So Paul and John are telling us that the rapture of the Gentile church of today is going to come just moments before the 6th seal earthquake.  Then God confirms this by showing John the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter in Revelation - as the crowd too large to number. Again, stop and think: the dead in Christ is going to be perhaps 40 to 50 generations of believers.  It is going to be  HUGE, HUGE number, too large to count. It is going to be in the billions or tens of billions. (It would take about 32 years to count to one billion - so too large to number).  The raptured church is going to be BY FAR the largest group written about in Revelation. 

So the rapture in Revelation was not shown, but the RESULT of the rapture was: the church seen in heaven. Where then is the 70th week in Revelation. It will begin with the 7th seal and end at the 7th vial. Therefore, using all end times scripture, the proof is there: the rapture comes first, followed by the 70th week and the wrath of God.

 

[iamlamad]

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

so its impossible that the several witnesses that speak to that coming are not witness to different aspects of the same event?

There is a remarkable lack of evidence for multiple comings of any shade of gray. 

Yes, impossible: the scriptures point to TWO MORE comings. The evidence is there; that is why millions of believers today believe it. 

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Ha! Solid evidence to some is rumor and innuendo to others. 

If you cannot present solid evidence then why do you stand on it as truth?

There IS solid evidence to me. But to others, with different preconceptions, they cannot see it.  Keep in mind, PROOF to me is not necessarily proof to others. I think it SHOULD be, but it is not.

First and Second thes. to me is good proof of when the rapture will take place, in relation to other events. In his first letter, Paul tells us that the rapture will come just before the start of the Day of the Lord. Yet, many people read chapters 4 & 5 and just don't see that.  In his second letter, I see the church being what is taken out of the way so that that man of sin can be revealed. Others don't see it.