What Happens When you Die?

[OpenMind]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:33 PM, Willa said:

The verses that are clear to me you say the meaning is inferred.  Nothing is clearer to me and nothing is inferred.  

Come now.  We can disagree.

You cited 2 Corinthians 5:8 as proof that we go to be with the Lord as soon as we die, yet it doesn't actually say "we will be with the Lord as soon as we die".  Therefore, you inferred it.

Let's look at what it really says.

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Now let's look at what he said immediately prior to this:

For while we are in this tent (in the body), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling (with the Lord), so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

He's looking forward to the day when "what is mortal may be swallowed up by life".  This is the resurrection he's talking about; the day we become life giving spirits.  Then he says we've been "fashioned for this very purpose".  In other words, we were made as flesh but with the eternal goal of becoming spirits, eternal and immortal.  He then continues on to say that the Spirit we've received is a guarantee of what is to  come.

In other words, he's speaking of the last day on which Jesus promised to raise us up and on which day Paul said we would become life giving spirits.  This is the resurrection he's speaking of, the day that we will finally be away from the body and with the Lord.  Yet, you inferred from it that we will be with the Lord the moment that we die, when it clearly does not say that.  So you can't read one thing, say it means another, and then deny that you inferred it. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by George
Removed a comment that could be perceived by some as an attack on somoene's honesty.

[OpenMind]

2 hours ago, Willa said:

Yes the body goes to the dust.

It's true that our bodies return to the dust, but you say it as though the body is not who you are.  Look at what Genesis 3:19 says.

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Notice that it doesn't say "Your body is dust".  No.  It says "You are dust".  In other words, you are your body.  That is all you are.  It's not a part of you.  It is you.  It also doesn't say "To dust your body shall return", as though your body is a temporary vessel.  No.  It says "to dust you shall return".

Again, if you think it's talking about a temporary vessel, then you are inferring that from the scripture because it doesn't say that.  

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, OpenMind said:

I guess I misunderstood your post then because you appeared to list "the soul" as one of the definitions of spirit.

What I posted was a quote from Strong's Concordance and stated it was the basics for understanding, stating I could go much deeper if you wanted.

[Willa]

54 minutes ago, OpenMind said:

Explain this to me:  If you are an immortal spirit who goes to heaven upon death, then what is the point of the resurrection on the last day?

When Christ returns for us we will be reunited with our resurrected spiritual immortal bodies. 

[Willa]

27 minutes ago, OpenMind said:

It's true that our bodies return to the dust, but you say it as though the body is not who you are.  Look at what Genesis 3:19 says.

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Notice that it doesn't say "Your body is dust".  No.  It says "You are dust".  In other words, you are your body.  That is all you are.  It's not a part of you.  It is you.  It also doesn't say "To dust your body shall return", as though your body is a temporary vessel.  No.  It says "to dust you shall return".

Again, if you think it's talking about a temporary vessel, then you are inferring that from the scripture because it doesn't say that.  

Again you are quoting from the Old Testament before indwell by the Holy Spirit and adopted into God's family.  

[Willa]

38 minutes ago, OpenMind said:

He's looking forward to the day when "what is mortal may be swallowed up by life".  This is the resurrection he's talking about; the day we become life giving spirits.  Then he says we've been "fashioned for this very purpose".  In other words, we were made as flesh but with the eternal goal of becoming spirits, eternal and immortal.  He then continues on to say that the Spirit we've received is a guarantee of what is to  come.

In other words, he's speaking of the last day on which Jesus promised to raise us up and on which day Paul said we would become life giving spirits.

 1Co 15:45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

This refers to Jesus Christ Who became a life-giving spirit.  I see nowhere that we become that.  You are misquoting Scripture.  

[Zemke]

8 hours ago, OpenMind said:

Do you believe that less clear scripture should be viewed in the light of more clear scripture?

And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your Kingdom." And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." Luke 23:42,43

We may not fully understand a timeless eternity compared to our time ordered temporal life. But the above seems like a clear scripture to me. Our bodies do die and decay but it would seem we will be conscious of what Jesus calls Paradise until we put on our new bodies at the resurrection.  I mentioned before about Paul being taken up and his uncertainty of how that was all coming about but he was conscious of what he saw. I also mentioned before that the sum of the word is true. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Zemke

[OpenMind]

19 minutes ago, Willa said:

When Christ returns for us we will be reunited with our resurrected spiritual immortal bodies. 

So we (as immortal spirits) will be reunited with our newly resurrected bodies, which are now also immortal spirits.  So you've got one immortal spirit, reuniting with another immortal spirit.  And this makes sense to you?

Perhaps you haven't really thought this through.

[OpenMind]

21 minutes ago, Willa said:

Again you are quoting from the Old Testament before indwell by the Holy Spirit and adopted into God's family.  

I'm not sure I follow.  Are you saying that before Christ, mankind did not have spirits inside of them, but now we have the Holy Spirit inside of us and that the Holy Spirit is our conscious spirit that goes to heaven when we die?  And our consciousness stays with that spirit?  So, aren't you then saying that we are the Holy Spirit?

And what of the wicked?  They don't have a holy spirit inside of them, but you believe they go straight to hell when they die right?  Well if they don't have a spirit, then what goes to hell exactly?

[Willa]

48 minutes ago, OpenMind said:

He's looking forward to the day when "what is mortal may be swallowed up by life".  This is the resurrection he's talking about; the day we become life giving spirits.  Then he says we've been "fashioned for this very purpose".  In other words, we were made as flesh but with the eternal goal of becoming spirits, eternal and immortal.

 Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  

We will not become spirits or angels after we die. Perhaps you inferred that we will become life giving spirits because no where do I find that.  I do find that Paul would be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.  I don't find any honosty in that in you misquoted that we become life giving spirits.    Our spirits are not resurrected with our bodies.  Our bodies are transformed in to bodies like Jesus' resurrected body and will be reunited with our spirits.  

I will no longer respond to you and will be praying for both of us for our blindness be removed and that we might be enlightened by the Holy Spirit.