Discrimination Against Gays - What Would You Base That On?

[OneLight]

32 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Hi Alan,

Thank you for being that frank about what causes you to write here.

Personally I'm not so sure about which people go to hell. Let's assume you were right in threatening hell to lesbians from a Biblical standpoint. Some 2000 years of anti-gay Christian propagana have passed since Bible and now. Maybe that was the hell for them? That was the hell stemming from Christians. Jesus might take that into consideration. Christians calling them filthy, equating them with rapists and so on.

You would have to ignore Romans 1:18-32 to come up with your conclusion, where scripture tells us the process and result.

Romans 1:18-32

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Again, be careful what you teach as you will be held accountable.

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

They are turning a blind eye to their sin, enabling them to continue without being held responsible by those who are in their lives.  To me, this is a greater sin than discrimination could ever be.

32 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Go to a conservative church, say you're gay and count the times people say "sin". I typed in "homosexuality AND sin" here on Worthy search ... and received 123 pages of hits. One page equals 25 hits.

This is unbelievable. There is no way I would even think about adding my voice to pages and pages of Christian mantra. No. Regardless of my own standpoint.

That is because homosexuality is sin.  There is no getting around it.  We are to stand against sin, rescuing sinners from death through Gods truth and love, not mans acceptance of what is fashionable and acceptable in today's world.

 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Yet, you ask us not to consider how we are affected but such actions when considering "acceptance" of such people, no matter what the offense may be. 

32 minutes ago, thomas t said:

which offense are you speaking of? CI don't understand.

Simply put, those who suffered such actions (sins) against them in life are being told that they should not discriminate against such sinful people.  Where you molested as a child?  How about physically abused?  Did anything in your life ever stand out to you that hurt you greatly?  Consider those who have.  Forgiving them for what they did to you is one thing, being asked to accept their action as they continue to do it to others is asking far too much if there is no effort to show them their sin by calling it sin. 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

the action of discrimination is caused by an action,

32 minutes ago, thomas t said:

as I said, apply the same standard used for divorcees - I mean the ones not claiming adultery - who date others... apply it to gays, too. No partiality. These divorcees outnumber lesbians at church, I think. 

Thomas

Sin is sin and I have never said any different.  Be it murder, adultery, thievery, lying, lust ... you name it, it is still sin and will separate one from God.  Yet, as I said, sexual sins are the only sins committed against your own body, which brings it closer to the heart.  Paul tells us that we cannot separate ourselves from the sinners of the world as we would have to remove ourselves from the world.  Yet, he never said to enable sinners in the name of nondiscrimination or tolerance ... that is mans doctrine.

Edited June 6, 2019 by OneLight
removed redundant copied replies

[thomas t]

24 minutes ago, OneLight said:

There is no getting around it.  We are to stand against sin, rescuing sinners from death through Gods truth and love, not mans acceptance of what is fashionable and acceptable in today's world.

sometimes it's getting way too much. If it's sin, Christians shouting "sin" can get too much.

28 minutes ago, OneLight said:

those who suffered such actions (sins) against them

but what are you talking about in this context here...

It seems you are talking about child molesting. Not every gay is a child molester by default.

Thomas

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

sometimes it's getting way too much. If it's sin, Christians shouting "sin" can get too much.

but what are you talking about in this context here...

It seems you are talking about child molesting. Not every gay is a child molester by default.

Thomas

It appears that you are going to the very extreme to prove a point, one that is not biblical at all.  One should not shout sin for anything as there is no love in shouting, only anger.  I don't shout to my family when we discuss their lifestyle, so I'm not sure why you even bring this up in our conversation.  Perhaps you are watching too many radical "christian" videos?

I never said a gay person was a child molester.  Again, going to an extreme to prove a point.

Sin is sin and needs to be dealt with, not covered over with political correctness, such as tolerance or nondiscrimination, even if it is within the church walls.  Show me once in scripture where Jesus said "your sins are forgiven, but go ahead and continue sinning anyway for I will continue to forgive you" and I will agree with your stance.

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

It seems you are talking about child molesting. Not every gay is a child molester by default.

Whoever transgresses one commandment, transgresses them all - is subject to death for their sin.

Defending a pervert because they don't rob a bank,  won't help the pervert and won't let them escape judgment.

The darkness within a son of disobedience , "by default"? ,  is of the enemy, not of God nor of Jesus at all,  and

the darkness sins no matter what it does,  

the darkness is 'molesting' itself,  daily,  with no repentance nor salvation ,   if it continues.

the darkness is the same darkness that commits all sin, under the father of sin, the devil,  the same devil who molests children.

[Billiards Ball]

9 hours ago, thomas t said:

 

You couldn't back this up by sources. Up to now you've never shown that you're able to find a source for your assertion (bolded above). Believe me, science does use sources.

I do think your experiences are of great value, but here it's an unsupported allegation, I think.

 

Thomas

 

Hi Thomas,

Here are some notes I have taken on the issues:

·         We have a lot of issues regarding homosexuality that touches the Christian church

·         Debate regarding homosexuality today revolves around marriage, tolerance and whether homosexuality is a choice (per the Bible) or a fixed orientation (per current psychology, genetics, etc.). Also, whether a homosexual may change to become heterosexual. Is that possible?

·         Bible – 18 mentions, none positive, plus Jesus reaffirmed marriage is a man, woman and God

·         Heritability versus inheritability – we hear things like a gene has been found; (people who are tall or more likely to play basketball professionally—heritability, but saying “he has a basketball gene” is offensive—inherited trait—homosexuality is heritable to libido—more libidinous people tend toward adultery/homosexuality as an outlet, just as the scripture says

·         Desire may not be a choice, but action is—I may not be able to help having passions, but I can help not acting on them—abstinence isn’t just for Christian gays, it’s for unmarried Christian straights

·         There are myths about being unable to change – the reality is that some homosexuals will live a life of abstinence but others will be heterosexual later—this must be true since married men who had sex to birth children later say “I’m gay” when they WERE bisexual or heterosexual, so the other direction must be possible, logically

·         What is the root cause of homosexuality if it is as the Bible says, and as genetics agrees, lust spilled over into unusual channels? Psychiatrist 300 cases as I mentioned– all same sex dissolution or sex abuse, often prepubescent or both

·         The future – it is normal to be prepubescent and think the opposite sex has “coodies”, now the world tells little boys and girls who dislike the opposite sex they’re gay, to be angry and dishonor their families when they come out, encouraged public demonstrations of sexuality and gay marriage—which the ancients disallowed – this is like a sign of the end times.

·         Homosexuals and bisexuals in the church need love, tolerance but most importantly, healing of past hurts and to be around good role models – strong family men and women

[OneLight]

I have an addictive personality, so I have been told.  For many years I was addicted to drugs.  For a while, I enjoyed the high I got from the addiction, but then I met God.  Through my desire to not use drugs and become a child of God, God showed mercy on me and changed my heart.  All I did was have a desire to be His and He did the work.  If, as scientist claim, I have a gene that caused me to have such an addictive personality, then all one needs to do is turn to the Creator and He will change you.  As with drugs, so it can be with sex.  No screaming, no beating someone with scripture, just a heart felt desire to be who He created us to be.

[thomas t]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I don't shout to my family when we discuss their lifestyle, so I'm not sure why you even bring this up in our conversation.

Because they don't call it "sin", they go on to call homosexuality "perversion". I found that shouty. They call gays perverts, see some posts above this one.

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I never said a gay person was a child molester.  Again, going to an extreme to prove a point.

It looked like you did:

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

Simply put, those who suffered such actions (sins) against them in life are being told that they should not discriminate against such sinful people [perpetrators].  Where you molested as a child?  How about physically abused?  Did anything in your life ever stand out to you that hurt you greatly?  Consider those who have.

[bolded mine]. It really appeared to me as you would draw the comparison between being gay and molesting a child.

So now you say, you don't. So what is it you're talking about when you write...

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Yet, you ask us not to consider how we are affected but such actions when considering "acceptance" of such people, no matter what the offense may be. 

3 hours ago, thomas t said:

which offense are you speaking of? CI don't understand.

Simply put, those who suffered such actions (sins) against them in life are being told that they should not discriminate against such sinful people. 

What are the offenses you're talking about?

 

My point is nondiscrimination, very biblical. I'm talking about giving up having favorites which is discriminating against the rest.

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

If, as scientist claim, I have a gene that caused me to have such an addictive personality, then all one needs to do is turn to the Creator and He will change you.  As with drugs, so it can be with sex.

you can do what you but please respect other peoples personality. Don't try to change them.

----

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

dishonor their families when they come out,

I don't understand.

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

more libidinous people tend toward [...] homosexuality

back it up please.

 

 

[thomas t]

11 hours ago, Cletus said:

its not victimizing anyone, but rather pointing to a standard, Gods standard. [...], both are against God's standard. 

It is victimizing, Cletus, you can't just go around and accuse people of being like rapists.

God's standard is perfection. So if you say, lesbians are like rapists... then please add that you are like rapists, too. If you don't, noone would think that this is what you mean.

Or are you telling me you're sinless?

11 hours ago, Cletus said:

regardless of a victim or not

rape victims are to be regarded. Rape's not a trivial offence.

Edited June 7, 2019 by thomas t
grammar

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 hours ago, Cletus said:

I sure do wish you would stop it.  let me be clear.  crystal clear.  i have read the gay agenda manual.  a book called after the ball.  you use the same words the book uses in your speech.  victim.  homophobia.  etc.  you use the same speech those promoting the gay agenda uses.   Playing the victim is one of the tactics in the book. 

The Bible says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  so exactly what fountain are you drawing from?  this tells me you are either trying to infiltrate or you been listening to the wrong people or watching to much cnn. 

and also to be clear, you cant provide a source, and in other threads others experience was not sufficient, and you incessantly demanded cite a source site a source cite a source.  Well, bust out with a source then.  you are the accuser here.  and by your own words the accuser MUST supply a source.  until you can do this based on your words, your opinion is invalid.  source? 

Yall,  Cletus is right .   I have seen the same identical approach .    And they set the rules and try and make us reason by their rules .    NOT ME .   I  WILL REASON by the BIBLE

and the SPIRIT alone .     Churches took this way of debating and it destroyed them .    The way men like McLaren and this Thomas guy and scores of others

debate ,  If we allow them to set the rules ,    WE LOSE .   Just like every other church or person has done .   Its a total recipe for disaster .   

You are spot on right Cletus .    And I will reason BY sound doctrine ALONE .   not by emotions , not by sciences or philosophies .  BUT BY THE SPIRIT and SOUND DOCTRINE .

By now it has to be very obvious what is going on .  

[OneLight]

35 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Because they don't call it "sin", they go on to call homosexuality "perversion". I found that shouty. They call gays perverts, see some posts above this one.

So, you dislike their semantics?  Would you prefer they say those who commit such sin have a debased mind, which is scriptural?  Would that settle better with you?

Quote

It looked like you did:

[bolded mine]. It really appeared to me as you would draw the comparison between being gay and molesting a child.

You really need to read it as I wrote it, not how you want it to sound.  I asked you if you were ever molested as a child, seeking to see if you have personal experience in the past where you would have to conquer that mountain in order to forgive someone.  I never equated the two.  You see, unless someone has personal experience of an issue, they will never fully understand what someone is going through.  All they can do is rely on their knowledge and personal understanding, lacking the experience.

Quote

So now you say, you don't. So what is it you're talking about when you write...

What are the offenses you're talking about?

My point is nondiscrimination, very biblical. I'm talking about giving up having favorites which is discriminating against the rest.

I am talking about what you are presenting here.  If you don't know, why continue?  You say there is too much discrimination against homosexual people in the church.  I brought in the fact that those who are personally affected by such sin are being asked by you to overlook their past and not have any concern with the sin at all. 

 

As for not discriminating again the sin people commit, how would you apply Jesus words to the woman who was caught in adultery?  Jesus told her to "go and sin no more".  Would you say that to one who is homosexual?  Would you show that person His love, or cower to not wanting to offend someone?

Quote

you can do what you but please respect other peoples personality. Don't try to change them.

For one, I cannot change anyone.  God changes them.  I am told to speak the truth in love, not quench the Holy Spirit in favor of another persons feelings.  I would rather stand with God and be judged by the world then to stand with the world and be judged by God.

Tell me, would you rather die in your sins and be coddled in this world, accepted for your sins and never be told you were wrong, which would led to eternal damnation, separation from God forever?  Or, would you rather be told you are sinning and unless you change you will spend eternity in damnation and separation from God forever?  Which do you see as more loving to a sinner?

Edited June 6, 2019 by OneLight