Discrimination Against Gays - What Would You Base That On?

[frienduff thaylorde]

10 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi Frienduff,

I looked Brian McLaren up on facebook. He is "progressive Christians". I don't have anything to do with that.

No, I said I never read that manual brought up by Cletus, so it's not "my" manual.

as I said, non-partiality IS Biblical.

Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? - John 7:51.

So before you call all lebians rapists... hear them before. And hear them all. Listen to them carefully Don't victimize. Wrong accusations are the way Jesus was treated.

See also Lev 19:16 for wrong accusations in general. According to wikipedia, in some countries Lebians *get* raped - for correction.

---

Hi Alan,

EDIT If that's what you call all people that you think commit sins, then yes! This would settle better.

I didn't understand this. No, I'm not asking them to overlook their past and their way of dealing with what you call sin, here.

First of all, Jesus told her so in silence. He didn't shout his sentence from the roof tops. Secondly, all the rest present there before... had to agree: we are sinners, too.

Last but not least, I would not call homosexuality sin, since I'm neutral. I went through this case scenario in theory... and I concluded that, if it were to be sin, my discussion partner must have heard this view a 1000 times anyways. No need for me to add my voice anyways. I hope this answers this, too:

 

---

Hi BB,

sometimes, I just don't have the knowledge to refute you .

Can you back up all assertions you made in your point no. 2 by using scientific sources, please? "The other day I read something but I can't find now, but this is what my experience confirms" is not a scientific source, btw.

EDIT: in your No. 1 point you said "In the USA, teen advocates, social workers, school workers, etc. are encouraged to have young people who think they're gay or are gay to tell their parents, to "come out of the closet", and if their parents object, to stand up for their rights to the point of hostility. This dishonors and destroys families." Coming out as destruction. I disagree. Parents should refrain from wanting to determine the sexual orientation of their children.

Thomas

 

You debating with christains .    We debate ONLY through the bible .     As it is GODS word alone we stand on .     Stop ducking the obvious and lets debate all through the bible .

But I think you know full well what you are doing , and IF we do this ,  you cannot win .     Debate only through the bible and stop ducking the request .

Who on earth said anything about lesbians and gays as everyone of them being rapists .    You do know this strategy only works on the double minded .

Debate only through the bible .   We aint atheists , so if you gonna try and prove your points , DO IT THROUGH the BIBLE .    But be warned ,  You cant win through the bible .

And you know this . 

[Reinitin]

On 5/29/2019 at 2:32 AM, thomas t said:

Hi all,

yesterday, a fellow poster said homosexuals can be asked to leave at church.

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

Moreover, this would stand in sharp contrast to the treatment of remarried couples (marrying a divorced woman). From all I know from churches, they never get asked to leave church.

 

Disclaimer: In this thread I will be discussing discrimination only - as opposed to the question whether or not it is sin to live in a same sex relationship. I want to keep the thread as focussed as possible. Let's discuss discrimination at churches.

 

Regards,

Thomas

 

There are 100,000's of denominations, belief statements, doctrines, pastors, congregations, community issues for any given church. Wanting a global standard to judge the particular convictions of a pastor is a condemnation on church sovereignty in itself, isn't it? It could be a maturity issue. It could be a protection move for youth to make a stand against issue of radical secular ideology being pushed to intimidate Christians from having a standard to deal with gender confusion and secular sexual ideology. It could be the pastor has his own struggle with sexual temptations.

Sin is the breaking of God's law and Christ came so sinners could be saved.

When Jesus forgave the women caught in the act of adultery he said "go and sin no more" she broke Gods law and Christ the only one with the ultimant  authority to forgive and condemn her sin against God said "neither do I condemn you". He didn't say she wasn't sinning against God. And he saved her life from that judgement of death. But it doesn't mean she didn't receive divorce papers the next day. He forgave her sin against God that required her life as payment. But she still probably had to deal with the consequences for her sin against her husband unless He knew Christ and was convicted to forgive her. 

Freedom of religion gives any church a right to establish a purity standard for their own congregation. If it bothers you don't go to that church. Comdemnation isn't people judging and deciding that separating themself from you to protect themselves from what they fear or decert as a actual or possible negative or ungodly or divisive effect on their congregation. Condemnation from people is when the decide they need to end your life so Gods Judgment doesn't fall on them for allowing you to keep sinning against God. ( my opinion from my study of it)

Jw won't take blood transfusions. if they find out your smoking your kicked out.

Church of Christ will kick people living together out if they are not married. But, if people repent they let them come back.

There are still penicostal churches where women don't ever wear short sleeves and never cut their hair and don't wear pants. Men wear long sleeves and cant let their hair grow out.

If you don't like being judged for your choices then maybe don't start out by wanting a hypothetical pastor of some obscure church judged by the church for his.

The difference is The Pastor is trying to serve God and his congregation following scripture and the Holy Spirit to the best of his ability and A homosexual is severing his sexual appetite and a dealing with a huge desire in his flesh for something that is against the law of God.. And both are still covered by Gods mercy and grace and Christ's perpetuation for our sin against the law of God.

As far as discrimination goes we all have our own values, convictions, temptations and pet peeves because we are human, their isn't some Eutopa group think that makes everything ok with everyone. Closest we will ever get to that is Alister Crawlys teaching of "do as tho will".

We have to have our joy full in Christ's acceptance and forgiveness knowing the world will falsely accuse us and speak every kind of evil against us whether our sin is hypocricy or sexual.

Every Christian has the righteousness of Christ which is their ability to stand before the throne of God with clean hands a pure hearts. And every Christian has some strong convictions about certain sins and strong temptations for others. Forgiveness might be a must to some and Hospitality a must to others, Patients, Honesty and as much as some people hate it, their are some congergation striving for "Be ye Holy, as I am Holy".

Leave them and let them work out their salvation with fear and trembling because in the end it is Christ who saves us all from breaking Gods laws.

And who are we to judge another's servant before Christ he will stand or fall and if he stands it is because Christ made him able to stand and it is very likely an opportunity for salvation is available to us unto our last breath.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ and called according to Gods purposes. It doesn't mean people will not condemn you, doesn't mean Christians won't call you on your vices. It means your heart cry's abba father and you have peace with Christ who has forgiven your trasspasses against the law of God and not condemned you. Jesus was condemned by man, the apostals were condemned, the churches were all condenmened by man through the ages and so are we, christians are sluaghtered all over this earth for beinh christian.. The Holy Spirit convicts us concerning righteousness, sin and judgment . So we can go to Christ for forgiveness, acceptance, restoration. Being convicted isn't being condemned, being called out on your sin isn't being condemned, being disciplined or shuned for your behavior is not being condemned unless you reject Christ and his marvelous works for your salvation then your sin against God is not forgiven by God then you are condemned and the wages of sin are death. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Reinitin
ack, such a deep topic to try to articulate.

[simplejeff]

7 hours ago, thomas t said:

No please. This is NOT a source. Please don't make me do your your research.

WHO IS THE SOURCE OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE ?

WHO IS TRUTH ?

Can't find Him by googling,  but seek Him, and keep seeking,  and HE SAYS you will find Him.

TRUTH also - seek the truth, and keep seeking the truth, and HE SAYS you will find the TRUTH, and the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

Don't be thinking this is "research" for someone else -  it is necessary for

anyone who desires to find the TRUTH (JESUS).

[thomas t]

Hi BB,

it seems like you're putting words in my mouth, here...

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

rather than say, "The Bible must be wrong, because current science, including gray sciences like psychology and human sexuality studies, must be right"?

I never said so. Why are you telling me that. Please BB, now the discussion isn't fruitful, anymore, I'm afraid... can we end this here?

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

these are lay reports about scientific studies all of which say that genetic tendencies towards a high libido are significantly correlated with adultery and homosexuality

this is what you didn't back up by science, I mean sources. No sources, only conjecture and yet the topic is science... I hate discussions like this, can we stop it, please?

----

Hi Frienduff,

Being neutral on a matter is not ducking. I've said right from the start which topics I'm going to debate and which one I won't.

1 hour ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Who on earth said anything about lesbians and gays as everyone of them being rapists .    You do know this strategy only works on the double minded . 

Read here.
 

[Billiards Ball]

17 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi BB,

it seems like you're putting words in my mouth, here...

I never said so. Why are you telling me that. Please BB, now the discussion isn't fruitful, anymore, I'm afraid... can we end this here?

this is what you didn't back up by science, I mean sources. No sources, only conjecture and yet the topic is science... I hate discussions like this, can we stop it, please?
 

I sincerely apologize, it was not my desire to put words in your mouth.

I appreciate reproof and correction. But recognize that many come to WCF to feel safe. On most other forums, evangelicals are strongly persecuted for their beliefs. It's been a bit unpleasant for you to tell me over and again that it's ignorant, ascientific and discriminatory to tell homosexuals I care for that they are not fully enjoying all God has for them, and need prayer, counseling, repentance and change.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Steve_S
Removed a bit of graphic content that was a little too much for this open forum.

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi BB,

it seems like you're putting words in my mouth, here...

I never said so. Why are you telling me that. Please BB, now the discussion isn't fruitful, anymore, I'm afraid... can we end this here?

this is what you didn't back up by science, I mean sources. No sources, only conjecture and yet the topic is science... I hate discussions like this, can we stop it, please?

----

Hi Frienduff,

Being neutral on a matter is not ducking. I've said right from the start which topics I'm going to debate and which one I won't.

Read here.
 

For someone who says he don't support brian McLaren and this progressive chrisanity .  YOU answer and duck and avoid JUST like they do .    Either you do support them,

or you of that same spirit .   

Either way the churches are collapsing due to this type of non biblical approach .  

I read wha willa said ,  She was not accusing every gay or lesbian of being a serial rapists .  She was using an example to show that many folks justify they own evil .

Thomas ,  I did all I could for you .     You don't want to heed , nor change so ,   all I can do is pray you start fresh in the LORD and unlearn what it is you think you learned .

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi BB,

it seems like you're putting words in my mouth, here...

I never said so. Why are you telling me that. Please BB, now the discussion isn't fruitful, anymore, I'm afraid... can we end this here?

this is what you didn't back up by science, I mean sources. No sources, only conjecture and yet the topic is science... I hate discussions like this, can we stop it, please?

----

Hi Frienduff,

Being neutral on a matter is not ducking. I've said right from the start which topics I'm going to debate and which one I won't.

Read here.
 

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

Thomas you SEE what you wrote UP HERE .....................You aint fooling anyone .  McLaren used the same approach .    And guess what ,  he now supports it .  Its all a scam and a set up .

You don't think its sin ,  IF you did you would warn .    You think it IS their identity .   You trying to deceive ,  and ITS NOT WORKING

Yall got an agenda and you will win an number so high to your cause , I suppose the sands on the beach cant compare.  But you wont be winning me , nor any true lamb .

SO may you and society do what yall gotta do .   But I wont take one step in this direction .

Not one step .

 

[thomas t]

13 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

On most other forums, evangelicals are strongly persecuted for their beliefs. It's been a bit unpleasant for you to tell me over and again that it's ignorant, ascientific and discriminatory to tell homosexuals I care for that they are not fully enjoying all God has for them, and need prayer, counseling, repentance and change.

Hi BB.

That's putting words in my mouth again.

If someone comes to you asking for your advice, than you can do that. It's your opinion. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else.

 

You're saying people with more libido take more risks. I wasn't interested in that one.

I wanted you to back up by sources that homosexals as a singled out group have higher levels libido.

---

Hi Rein

16 hours ago, Reinitin said:

Wanting a global standard to judge the particular convictions of a pastor is a condemnation on church sovereignty in itself, isn't it?

actually a church can do what they want.

However, when they kick the gays out unless they repent... all the while keeping divorcees that date again, they show bias against gays, in my opinion. I'm speaking of divorcees who don't claim adultery to be the reason for their divorce.

When chuches show this kind of double standard... I'm afraid that the world kicks us out, too, in work life for instance. Unless we "repent" and give up Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your reply, though.

---

Hi Frienduff,

you're putting words in my mouth... you say "You don't think its sin , ". Let's assume I do. In a discussionboard in which you read "homosexuality is sin" for 1000+ times, I won't add my voice.

We're going round in circles, here, neutrality is not the same as ducking.

10 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Either you do support them,

or you of that same spirit . 

I don't think so. I'm not trying to deceive, either.

10 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

read wha willa said ,  She was not accusing every gay or lesbian of being a serial rapists .  She was using an example to show that many folks justify they own evil .

she equated gay pride with "rapist pride".  ... She compared both groups so then.

10 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Thomas ,  I did all I could for you .    

so let's finish here.

Hi Cletus,

10 hours ago, Cletus said:

still no source cited?

look here (last sentence), that's where I cited someone equating gays and rapists.

Regards,

Thomas

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by thomas t
typos

[Billiards Ball]

7 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi BB.

That's putting words in my mouth again.

If someone comes to you asking for your advice, than you can do that. It's your opinion. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else.

 

You're saying people with more libido take more risks. I wasn't interested in that one.

I wanted you to back up by sources that homosexals as a singled out group have higher levels libido.

---

 

I don't wish to put words in your mouth. I do see a reluctance for you to explore the biblical insights and the issues I'm throwing your way.

Of course, I would only offer a churchgoing homosexual advice if they came out to me as a homosexual and if they asked for advice. Of course. I've already told you I've had church friends ask for advice with "their friends struggling with homosexuality", and when I say, "It's often past same sex abuse or dysfunctional same sex parenting," they respond, "It's really me who needed this advice. How did you know my history?"

I've never said homosexuals have a higher libido than heterosexuals although some scientists and sexual health professionals have gone there. I'm rather saying that most of "gay/lesbian is genetic" has led to scientific studies explaining that individuals with high libidos are more likely to adulter outside marriage and/or pursue homosexual activity--this, as science often does--perfectly aligns with the Bible.

[thomas t]

3 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

the issues I'm throwing your way.

I'm not going to discuss sexuality as such. I am very reluctant to do so that, in this you're right, I don't have time. This thread is about homophobia. I don't want it to be sidetracked. You're very interested in sexuality, it seems, but this is not the focus of the thread. I do not accept the expectation that once you want to discuss homophobia... you must discuss all of sexuality. This is hurling elephants and does not serve a fruitful debate. The fact that many homosexuals do have long term partners... means sexuality is more than a simple lifestyle that you can change overnight like people claim it was.

3 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Of course, I would only offer a churchgoing homosexual advice if they came out to me as a homosexual and if they asked for advice.

please take care they are no younger than 18. They need to fully understand what sexuality is, how they feel, before you ask them to "repent". Don't play your card with minors of age. If they are older than 20, which is biblical adulthood, everything is fine.

3 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I've never said homosexuals have a higher libido than heterosexuals

?? Read here, you said more libidinous people tend towards [...] homosexuality. How should people understand that in a different way than I did. Now we're an page 18, you never backed any of your claims up using sources, I don't think you take this debate very seriously. For you it's some nice passtime perhaps. For me it's more. I'm concerned lest our image deteriorates any further. Everyone fairly educated who happens to read this will wonder how we can be wanting to discuss science and never using any sources? I mean you're promoting claims about libido and such. I don't want to have the image of belonging to a dumb group.

Look, this is really time consuming for me. If you come up with claims PLEEEEEEASE back them up correctly. If you don't have the time to back your claims up USING SOURCES ... don't post them in the first place, please.

Thomas