Predetermined life vs. free will

[mlbrokish]

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

[gordon7777]

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

 

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

 

 

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

 

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?

 

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

 

Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

[Sower]

1 hour ago, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

I have ideas about that, but I do not know.

I have children, and have trained them to do what is right.
I have interfered occasionally for wrong behavior.
They are grown now.I can counsel them, but they are adults.

Somehow, I relate that to our heavenly Father.
He prunes/chastises His own children.
Gives direction, when ask.
Each child will stand before Him, ultimately.
For his own decisions, not God's.

Prov.3; 5-6  
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Guest Luke11]

I think life is half free will and half fate.

 

They is things in life we have to suffer and go through... but when these obstacles come its how we choose to handle it and what path to take then the right or the wrong path that is free will... but the obstacle is fate.

[mlbrokish]

Proverbs 16:33 New International Version (NIV)

³³ The lot is cast into the lap,
    but its every decision is from the Lord.

 

Is "free will" only a beginning of an action, thought, etc. ?

[mlbrokish]

Luke,

That's kinda where I have been until recently.  I just wonder if our free will may interfere with God's plan and He presents results that re-directs our path to be His will.  

Does God direct fate or destiny?

[Jostler]

When I studied this question, I came away  with the  understanding that our  free will is so complete, He simply will not violate it.  And will not allow satan to.  To make a short cut to the end of a very  long story, if He did NOT grant (and protect) complete free moral agency in mankind, He would not be the love He claims to be.  This may sound very  odd, but the answer to the question "Why do bad things happen to people?" is nothing more or less than "Because God is love."  That might take some explaining, but it  is true.

Foreknowledge does NOT mean controlled outcome.  What His foreknowledge "knew" before it ever happened, and accepting that He  did know, does not demand we understand that He influenced the outcome.

I'll share how He clarified that point in my own mind, and He did it by  giving me a visual parable. 

Imagine yourself seated with  Him on a low hill, overlooking a road crossing with a 4 way stop.  And He grants you a measure of His ability to see perfectly into the future.  You can "see" with perfect accuracy sixty seconds into the future.  By virtue of this foresight you see a red car approaching from the  lower right and a black pickup truck approaching from the lower left.  Both drivers ignore the stop sign and a horrific crash results in the  middle  of the intersection.

Your perception reverts to the "now" and sure enough, here comes a red car and a black pickup.  You know what is about to happen.  And sure enough it does.  Both drivers ignore the law and both are injured and suffer a loss of property.

But, did you cause that accident?

Foreknowledge does not demand that any outcome was "determined".  In that scenario the driver's poor choices were what caused their distress.  God had nothing  to do with making it  happen.

Satan has  to  capture our free will by tricking us into giving him control of it.  He cannot TAKE it from us, but he  can deceive us into using our own free will against our own best interests.  And that's called sin.

[mlbrokish]

Sower, Thank you. I have 4 daughters and your explanation is something I can certainly identify with. It brings a better understanding to me. 

Thank you Jostler.  I learn and understand best by visualizing ideas, therefore your example makes perfect sense! I never could quite get this clear in my mind.

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

Question: "What does the Bible say about predestination vs. free will?"

Answer: In discussing predestination vs. free will, many people so strongly prefer one side that they virtually reject the possibility of the other’s having even a hint of truth. Those who strongly emphasize the sovereignty of God in predestining who will be saved sometimes take a position that resembles fatalism. Those who emphasize the free will of humanity come close to denying the sovereignty of God. However, if the terms are understood biblically, the discussion is predestination vs. free will, but rather predestination and not-entirely-free will.

Passages such as Romans 8:29–30 and Ephesians 1:5–11 explicitly teach that God predestines some to salvation. The word translated “predestine” means “determine the destiny before.” There is no escaping the fact that God predetermines who will be saved. On what basis God predestines who will be saved can be debated, but predestination itself is absolutely a biblical teaching. Numerous other New Testament passages also refer to believers’ being chosen or elected to salvation (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5–7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1–2; 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10).

There is nothing in the Bible that teaches human beings have a free will, at least not in the sense of how many people understand the term free will. A common understanding of free will is that we can make our own decisions entirely free of any outside influence. This understanding of free will is not biblical, nor does it match reality. The Bible teaches that without Christ we are “dead in our trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). If we are spiritually dead, surely that impacts our decision-making. John 6:44 says that, unless God draws, no one can come to Christ for salvation. If the decision whether to trust in Christ is impossible without God’s “interference,” our will is not “free.”

Our ability to make decisions is impacted by numerous factors, e.g., our sin nature, our upbringing, our intellect, our training/education, our biology, our psychology, etc. So, no, human beings do not truly have a free will. We have a will. We can make decisions. Biblically speaking, we have the responsibility to respond to what God has revealed to us, including His call to believe the gospel (John 1:12; 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9–10; Revelation 22:17). But, again, our will is not truly free.

Predestination is a biblical doctrine. Free will is not. If the question is predestination vs. free will, predestination wins decisively, biblically speaking. If the question is predestination vs. will or predestination vs. responsibility, that is more difficult. Somehow, God is sovereign over who is saved, and, concurrently, we are genuinely responsible for our decisions related to salvation. In the Bible, God repeatedly calls on us to exercise our will and trust in Christ for salvation. How these two truths work together may be incomprehensible to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.
https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-vs-free-will.html

Edited June 2, 2019 by missmuffet

[gordon7777]

14 minutes ago, Jostler said:

When I studied this question, I came away  with the  understanding that our  free will is so complete, He simply will not violate it.  And will not allow satan to.  To make a short cut to the end of a very  long story, if He did NOT grant (and protect) complete free moral agency in mankind, He would not be the love He claims to be.  This may sound very  odd, but the answer to the question "Why do bad things happen to people?" is nothing more or less than "Because God is love."  That might take some explaining, but it  is true.

Foreknowledge does NOT mean controlled outcome.  What His foreknowledge "knew" before it ever happened, and accepting that He  did know, does not demand we understand that He influenced the outcome.

I'll share how He clarified that point in my own mind, and He did it by  giving me a visual parable. 

Imagine yourself seated with  Him on a low hill, overlooking a road crossing with a 4 way stop.  And He grants you a measure of His ability to see perfectly into the future.  You can "see" with perfect accuracy sixty seconds into the future.  By virtue of this foresight you see a red car approaching from the  lower right and a black pickup truck approaching from the lower left.  Both drivers ignore the stop sign and a horrific crash results in the  middle  of the intersection.

Your perception reverts to the "now" and sure enough, here comes a red car and a black pickup.  You know what is about to happen.  And sure enough it does.  Both drivers ignore the law and both are injured and suffer a loss of property.

But, did you cause that accident?

Foreknowledge does not demand that any outcome was "determined".  In that scenario the driver's poor choices were what caused their distress.  God had nothing  to do with making it  happen.

Satan has  to  capture our free will by tricking us into giving him control of it.  He cannot TAKE it from us, but he  can deceive us into using our own free will against our own best interests.  And that's called sin.

Now imagine back, before the material for the cars was extracted. God created everything to be as it will be, with the materials needed for the vehicles to transport us around, with the knowledge in their heads to be able to make these cars out of the materials God left in front of man. The ability to also drive a car is commonly set into the minds ability that God allowed mankind to possess, so that everything of the scenario would come about. Man also does have his own free will, freely to kill, freely to steal, freely to be merciless, selfish, to be greedy of gain, and to not have much of a conscience. This is why everything bad happens on the earth, becauzse man is that bad, it would not make sense otherwise.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Next story.

Another person who is a man, just like any other man, is destined then to cause some harm sometime in his life, and that is added to the likelihood because he lacks that conscience, kindness, fear of God, love for others. But something happens, God is actually in the picture this time, in this example, being the God that He described Himself to us, and He calls that man, and changes Him completely, because He wanted some people to know Him, and knowing God they do nothing like they did before, because all they did before was vanity, now knowing God, God makes everything they do be for purpose, because just the slightest part of God anywhere near a person means they have much more strength than they need, as the weakness of God is stronger than the man who thinks he is strong without the Lord. satan does not need to get hold of evil mans will, he already serves satan well, and when God gets hold of someone, thy serve the Lord no less well.

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.