Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[Dennis1209]

So, essentially what is being said here is; that the Book of Revelation is not laid out in chronological order with parenthetical chapters inserted?

[dhchristian]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course you miss the gist of the argument brother by concentrating on the TD and not the overall point.

No, this gets to the heart of the matter. You see you can score the TD, but not make the extra point or two in the end. You can be satisfied with where you are, or you can earnestly seek the Truth. I was content where I was living with the pride of life, it took great heartache and brokenness and zealous repentance to learn the heart of God. Scoring the extra points if you know what I mean.

13 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

For starters, 2 Thess. 2 doesn't mean a "FALLING AWAY" it means a DEPARTURE [of the Church] and the first 7 English translations had Departure as did the Latin Vulgate {discessio} for 1000 years before that. So you are looking towards a "FALLING AWAY" or a Departure from the Faith when FAITH gas zero to do with the whole passage !! Paul used a definite article, thus it was pointing unto a particular Departure. That Departure is shown in the very first verse when it speaks about the Gathering together unto the Lord. So Paul says clearly, the Departure {gathering together unto the Lord} MUST HAPPEN BEFORE the Day of the Lord {God's Wrath} can come upon you Thessalonians, which is what they feared, that they were all of the sudden in God's Wrath, they of course weren't. The Departure of the Church must come first, AND the Man of Sin must also come, BEFORE the Day of the Lord can be upon you Thessalonians. Now the world does get more evil, just like Romans 1 says, but that has nothing to do with the Departure verses Paul was speaking about. 

We went through this with Iamlamad on the rev. 12 post, you can go and read there my opinion on this play on words to get scripture to say what you want it to say.

 

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I do believe this is Metaphorical, and the Church Age has different periods, but there are also all of the different types of Churches in every age. In other words there are faithful Churches today of course. 

The number is fewer and fewer, I can attest to this in my years of searching for churches. Without getting into a theological debate, If Leonard Ravenhill was right in the 80's that less than 5% of people in the church are truly born again, then that number is far fewer now. That does not bode well for the institutional churches. I had this discussion with R Hartono too where even third world churches are Laodicean in the sense that they covet that which we have here in the mega churches, and this. Very few of these stand as a light in the darkness, they only try and mimic our failed churches.

 

21 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I have been a Christian 33 years, so I understand the ups and downs brother. I have not smoked a Cig. or drank one ounce of Spirits/Wine/Beer since I was aged 23. But of course we all fall short brother at various times, here and there. I also understand, as you do I am sure, that  Satan can appear as an Angel of light at times and we have to be weary. God will never lead us wrong but we have to train ourselves to hear His voice and to see Satan's lies also. As a preacher of over 30 years, what I have found out brother is w need to stay well rounded, when we get to narrowly focused we tend to be going off the rails or on a tangent of sorts. Everything has to fit together. 

You see, the biggest sin of the Laodicean church is complacency. This complacency has led to the denial that they are in need of anything. But what has happened is they have Locked Jesus out of the church, hence he is knocking to be let in. It is far harder for the rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. Why is this? because they do not see their need for Jesus, and instead rely on their rank and place and status. This is the Spiritual side of being rich. Much like there is spiritual blindness, which never happens instantly, but happens over years of time, just like Israel... Which is the main point of the rest of this.

 

28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

My explanation above explains this. The Jews are protected for a reason, God Promised Abraham a SEED Forevermore. Jesus will rule 1000 years from Jerusalem. So there must be a seed of Abraham left, and God can not lie. By the way, in Rev. 12:17, Jesus is THAT SEED Remember Galatians ch. 3 ? I don't think God chooses some to suffer, He has plans/reasonings why He does things. 

This is going to go off on a bit of a tangent, so bear with me. When Jesus confronted the Pharisees (I think it was John 5, or 8) they pleaded their defense on the fact that they were Abraham's seed. The Church too is Abraham's seed, for Faith came by Abraham, the Law by Moses. The resulting debate with the Pharisees came to the final conclusion with Jesus saying "ye are of your Father the Devil". How is it that this nation and people of God, the apple of His eye, to whom were given the Oracles of God could reach such a point of apostacy (Not departure) that they were deceived into believing they were of God, yet they were of the Devil? Could this same fate occur to the church as well as we enter the new dispensation? Only a Remnant of Israel followed Christ and received Him as their Saviour, But it was by their unbelief that grace was granted to us (Romans 11). And Only a remnant of the church system will be spared. The Great tribulation is that final test of worthiness, and Judgment begins at the house of God (1 peter 4:17)

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:20)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matt. 24:38)

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?(1Peter 4:17-18)

So Knowing this, and seeing the pattern repeat itself in the church in this day and age, Is this not cause for caution and wariness and waking up to the fact that all is not OK in Christendom? If not, then You are likely to be living in complacency. Pray about this, because this is deadly serious.

53 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Always be weary when people say we have a "special message" the Mormons sprang up from that type thinking. 

 I Invite you to test the Spirit in me to see if he is of God. I am not trying to start a religion, gain a following, glorify myself with thousands of likes and followers on facebook, all I am doing is trying to point the complacent believer living in partial belief (Luke warmness) to the cross and Christ Jesus. To Open the door and Let Jesus in, to be zealous and repent, Knowing that the time of Judgment is coming, and it begins at the house of God. This should at the very least get you on your knees if you are a true Believer in Christ Jesus. 

God Bless you too, and more importantly bless God. (Psalm 103:1)

BTW I Ignored  the stuff on Rev. 12, because I went over that on the post by R Hartono. 

 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

So, essentially what is being said here is; that the Book of Revelation is not laid out in chronological order with parenthetical chapters inserted?

Good question Dennis. 

For a long time, I believed it was in chronological order, but I am revisiting this issue again.  I’m no longer closed on this topic. Still examining it. But I will share two perspectives from people on this thread: Marilyn and Rev Man.,

Marilyn doesn’t believe the judgments to be chronological, although I believe Rev Man Does believe them to be chronological.

Even though the trumpets and bowls are similar 1-7, Rev Man made a good point in saying trumpets 1-4 are partial judgments (1/3) while 1-4 bowls, even though similar in their nature  now FULL judgments.  Marilyn believes that too. 

I have  reread those chapters in Revelation and I think they could be right.....so,if that is the case, then the first 4 trumpets for sure will precede the first 4 bowls. 

Rev Man I think has stated the last three events before the return of Christ are:

1. 1st woe...5th trumpet

2. 2nd woe- 6th trumpet 

3. 3rd woe- which are ALL the bowls released at one time.

This Timeline is not Marilyn’s.  Marilyn has the seals spread out throughout the entire week, with the 6th seal immediately preceding the return of Christ to the planet. 

I hope this helps! Phew! 

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

So you agree with Rev Man that the first 4 trumpets are partial judgments (one third) but the first 4 bowls are complete judgments (full) of basically the same thing (same or very similar judgment).  

That they are not the same judgment with more detail but rather two very distinct different judgments at different times. Is this right? 

But you believe the 6th and 7th Judgment of each (trumpet and bowls) are the same event, not two distinct events at different times. In other words 6th trumpet = 6th bowl and 7th trumpet =7th bowl) Is this correct?

Hi Spock,

Yes I agree that the first 4 trumpets are partial, (1/3rd) but the first four bowls are full ones. The only difference is that the first bowl concerns those who took the mark & worshipped the beast. So that tells us that they happen sometime after the A/C takes power half way through trib.

Now I read that Rev man thinks that all the bowls occur at the same time, however we need to factor in some time for the great army to get from the east over to the Middle East & gather at Armageddon. (Rev. 16: 12) Then from Armageddon down through Israel, (killing all Israelis they find) to around Jerusalem, will also take some time. Finally after the great army and the rest of the world`s armies loot and destroy some of Jerusalem and gather outside, (overkill) then comes the voice of the Lord and the great earthquake. (Joel 3: 16   Rev. 16: 17 - 21)

Thus said I see that the 7 bowls are towards the end of the trib, and are over time.

And yes I would say that the 6th & 7th trumpet & bowls are related to the same events.

regards, Marilyn.  

[Scott Free]

There are two separate events. The 3 1/2 years is catastrophic climate change caused by man. The 40 days or trumpets is the impact of the meteor Wormwood causing a mass extinction event (these are the days that must be shortened). Daniel 12:11-12

[Spock]

43 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

There are two separate events. The 3 1/2 years is catastrophic climate change caused by man. The 40 days or trumpets is the impact of the meteor Wormwood causing a mass extinction event (these are the days that must be shortened). Daniel 12:11-12

Whoa, where did this come from?  Catastrophic climate change caused by man.......yow-Za! 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Yes I agree that the first 4 trumpets are partial, (1/3rd) but the first four bowls are full ones. The only difference is that the first bowl concerns those who took the mark & worshipped the beast. So that tells us that they happen sometime after the A/C takes power half way through trib.

Now I read that Rev man thinks that all the bowls occur at the same time, however we need to factor in some time for the great army to get from the east over to the Middle East & gather at Armageddon. (Rev. 16: 12) Then from Armageddon down through Israel, (killing all Israelis they find) to around Jerusalem, will also take some time. Finally after the great army and the rest of the world`s armies loot and destroy some of Jerusalem and gather outside, (overkill) then comes the voice of the Lord and the great earthquake. (Joel 3: 16   Rev. 16: 17 - 21)

Thus said I see that the 7 bowls are towards the end of the trib, and are over time.

And yes I would say that the 6th & 7th trumpet & bowls are related to the same events.

regards, Marilyn.  

I don’t think Rev Man thinks a great army from the East will be literally crossing over a dried up Euphrates River.  I think he allegorized that one.  I thought I read something like that. 

[Revelation Man]

16 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

So, essentially what is being said here is; that the Book of Revelation is not laid out in chronological order with parenthetical chapters inserted?

It has an order to it, we just have to know what to look for.......Basically the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments cover all 42 Months that the Beast reigns as the Beast. These are old {John Wrote them on an Island 2000 years ago} texts/scripture, with no chapters or verses, so who is to say that chapter 16 shouldn't come after chapter 9 ? Then it would be Rev. 2-3 Church Age, Rev. 4-5 the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened, and Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 16 would be 10, AND THEN all the Parenthetical Citation Chapters would follow the Ordered Chapters,.....................followed by the Judgment and hereafter/New Jerusalem of Rev. 20-22. 

But technically your statement is correct, it's not in order per se......BUT, it's really only one chapter that is out of order, then a bunch of Parenthetical Chapters are dropped on us. telling us more details about the Judgment Chapters..........................................and finally we get the Judgment Seat and the Hereafter/New Jerusalem chapters.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Rev Man I think has stated the last three events before the return of Christ are:

1. 1st woe...5th trumpet

2. 2nd woe- 6th trumpet 

3. 3rd woe- which are ALL the bowls released at one time.

Everything was spot on except I don't think all the Vials are released at the SAME TIME, I do however think the 7th Trump Sounds and thus the 3rd Woe is all 7 Vials released in successive order. After all the 6th Vial is the Gathering Armies of the Beast and the 7th Vial is Jesus defeating them. 

I think where you conflated my understanding in this was via chapter 11, it only mentions the 7th Trumpet sounding, then says Jesus takes over. In other words the 7th Trumpet is seen as the coming victory without the DETAILS, just like the 2nd Woe is mentioned in Rev. 11 also, with no details, to get that play by play we have to go to Rev. 9, where the 6th Trumpet brings the 2nd Woe, likewise the 7th Trumpet ushers in the 3rd Woe, but just like the 7th Seal opening ushers in the 7 Trumpets, all are not Sounded at the same time, likewise, the 7 Vials are also not poured out at the same time, they just emit from the 7th Trumpet, via what is called the 3rd Woe. {WARNING...May cause confusion/headaches, but the author is not insane.....}

1 hour ago, Spock said:

I don’t think Rev Man thinks a great army from the East will be literally crossing over a dried up Euphrates River.  I think he allegorized that one.  I thought I read something like that. 

The 200 Million are in the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe, not in the 6th Vial. They are an Angelic Army that slays 1/3 of Mankind, this who refuse to repent, and thus have the Mark of the Beast no doubt.  So people conflate those two events. And yes, I do think the River needing to be dried up is allegorical, its more or less God saying He will prepare the way for these cats to make their fatally, final deastic mistake in life, trying to fight God Almighty, at Armageddon. It is all the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD who come to try and defeat God.....MISTAKE !! I think the King of the East mention is just God saying that Great Babylon, the Head of Gold is about to be toppled. Of course Iran and Iraq will be a part of this battle, but then again, the Whole World is there. So I think the mention is just Metaphoric in nature, using logic. 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It has an order to it, we just have to know what to look for.......Basically the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments cover all 42 Months that the Beast reigns as the Beast. These are old {John Wrote them in a Island 2000 years ago} texts/scripture, with no chapters or verses, so who is to say that chapter 16 shouldn't come after chapter 9 ? Then it would be Rev. 2-3 Church Age, Rev. 4-5 the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened, and Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 16 would be 10, AND THEN all the Parenthetical Citation Chapters would follow the Ordered Chapters,.....................followed by the Judgment and hereafter/New Jerusalem of Rev. 20-22. 

But technically your statement is correct, it's not in order per se......BUT, it's really only one chapter that is out of order, then a bunch of Parenthetical Chapters are dropped on us. telling us more details about the Judgment Chapters..........................................and finally we get the Judgment Seat and the Hereafter/New Jerusalem chapters.

Hi Rev. Man,

Now are you telling us that God the Father who wrote His word, who sees the end from the beginning, who set out all the types and symbols of His Son, in His word before His Son ever came to earth, are you telling us that God is not able to keep His word in the correct order?

And God`s word is not dependent upon John or whoever centuries ago. God, who knows the number of the hairs of your head, and every planet He made, etc yes He is quite able to give us His correct written word in the right order.

Marilyn.