Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Nope, You are not understanding what I am saying.... Obviously you are incapable of receiving Christ Jesus in His Fullness, either that or you do not want to or afraid to? You will likely continue as a Laodicean, and not overcome. You are of course free to do so if you wish. Your refusal shows your lukewarmness...

Why do you say "obviously I am incapable of Receiving Christ Jesus in His fulness." What do you mean? Explain yourself with scripture.

[dhchristian]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

speaking of a few years....

Can we just understand this verse once and for all and quit missing the truth?

⁸ Charity never faileth: but   Truth: and faith works by love.

whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;  Are prophesies failing yet? NO; Much of Revelation is still to come.

whether there be tongues, they shall cease;  They will cease when these other things cease.

whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. Has natural, human knowledge vanished away yet? NO!

⁹ For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  Do you know it all yet? No one does!

¹⁰ But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. It should be clear if you understand all parts of this verse, that the perfect has NOT YET HAPPENED. It will happen with His Rev. 19 coming.

Note carefully: you cannot just pull a part of a verse out of its context and try to form a doctrine! You know better!

That is what Pentecostals do with tongues all the time. They have a partial understanding and apply it to everyone, demand conformity, and when this conformity is demanded People will fake the understanding. This is Human nature. 

Jesus is Alive today as he was yesterday, as he will be. His promises are eternal. This fulness of Christ was offered to the early church, but they were not ready for it. Read the following passage it is all there, how the fulness of Christ and his perfection is for us and attainable, And God has permitted this in this day and age.  

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word (LOGOS) of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. (Heb. 5:12-6:3)

You can deny this all you want, But these promises are here for the receiving If god wills this. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Why do you say "obviously I am incapable of Receiving Christ Jesus in His fulness." What do you mean? Explain yourself with scripture.

The Word of righteousness is superior to the Word of knowledge the Pentecostals speak of. Read the following passage closely, notice the purpose of these gifts.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:11-13)

Where as Pentecostalism was a step in the right direction it was not the final step in the Process. The Gifts of the Spirit lead to something better, to the perfecting of the saints, to edification, till we all come to the unity of the faith, and Knowledge of the Son of God as the ever living one, and to perfect men, in the fullness of Christ. 

My Calling is summed up in this Phrase. "Can the teacher be taught" You proclaim yourself a teacher, which I do not doubt, But are you capable of taking that final step into the arms of Christ Jesus and receive him in his fullness? Are you able to be taught by one sent from God with a calling who is teaching you to not remain complacent in where you are and to grow into him in completeness? For too long the church of this day has lived in partial belief of these gifts he has given us. Because you are comfortable where you are at you are able to look down on me and say my deception is a Picasso, But complacency is the self deception of the Laodicean church age. These Words I have written are not from me, but from Him who sent me, You have the option now of rejecting or receiving what has been said. Make Jesus your all in all, surrender your will to His, Your knowledge to the mind of Christ... You are ready for this step, it is a step of absolute trust in Christ Jesus to his arms. I cannot explain it any better than this, for there is an unknown irrational element that makes this the final step of faith.

I Want to share a dream the LORD gave me regarding this.... I was standing in a church, full of people, the service was going on as normal, but a section of the church was chained off from people going there, which was at the alter. There was a large chasm there where the alter was like they had chained it off so as not to allow anyone to fall in. The LORD showed me in that dream that this was the place of complete faith in Him, In times past many would make their way to the alter and leap into His arms, now the churches have closed off this area of the church, so that the people of God would remain in the pews instead of coming into His arms. When we leap from this alter He gives us Wings like eagles. But we cannot Know we have those wings till our faith is so strong in him, that we simply leap and trust in Him. The Wings of Eagles are the wings of a saint. You can forever live with clipped wings, or you can learn to fly as the saints do.

God Bless.  

 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

13 hours ago, dhchristian said:

In Word, but not in deed. Most follow the teachings of men.

One of those teachings of men is that tongues were for the early church only, and is not needed today. Another is that tongues in the bible is always in some earthly language. These are teachings of men. The bible is clear: when someone speaks in tongues, no man understands.  Why would that be true? It is simple: tongues are not in human languages: The Holy Ghost makes them up "on the spot." They are not talking to men, but to God.

Now, I have presented my case to you, ask yourself what denomination teaches these things? NONE. These teachings come from the one who sent me, will you hear Him? I am just a messenger Pointing you to Christ Jesus. I am not looking to start a church, or to create a following, neither am I defending any church, or speaking for any denomination of men. None of them teach what I have said here. 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, in some manner God speaks through all believers. I am talking about supernatural speech: prophecy in your own language, or tongues in a Holy Spirit language. If you are talking about supernatural speech as Paul laid it out for us, you would not understand what you were saying; the words would go from your human spirit to your mouth and not through your understanding. But you still don't understand this or believe it. It is truth anyway.  Correction: since you are born again, He is God IN you. If you were baptised in the Holy Spirit, He would also be UPON you.

Since you deny the real supernatural speech, it does not happen in your life.  You will just have to do without supernatural speech and rely on your understanding to speak. You deny the supernatural to have the natural. I get it.  The masterpiece is showing. You have been proving it over and over and over. It is a very good work.

Emmanuel is God WITH us. Not just upon you. He is standing at the door knocking waiting for you to let Him In. 

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, dhchristian said:

The Word of righteousness is superior to the Word of knowledge the Pentecostals speak of. Read the following passage closely, notice the purpose of these gifts.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph 4:11-13)

Where as Pentecostalism was a step in the right direction it was not the final step in the Process. The Gifts of the Spirit lead to something better, to the perfecting of the saints, to edification, till we all come to the unity of the faith, and Knowledge of the Son of God as the ever living one, and to perfect men, in the fullness of Christ. 

My Calling is summed up in this Phrase. "Can the teacher be taught" You proclaim yourself a teacher, which I do not doubt, But are you capable of taking that final step into the arms of Christ Jesus and receive him in his fullness? Are you able to be taught by one sent from God with a calling who is teaching you to not remain complacent in where you are and to grow into him in completeness? For too long the church of this day has lived in partial belief of these gifts he has given us. Because you are comfortable where you are at you are able to look down on me and say my deception is a Picasso, But complacency is the self deception of the Laodicean church age. These Words I have written are not from me, but from Him who sent me, You have the option now of rejecting or receiving what has been said. Make Jesus your all in all, surrender your will to His, Your knowledge to the mind of Christ... You are ready for this step, it is a step of absolute trust in Christ Jesus to his arms. I cannot explain it any better than this, for there is an unknown irrational element that makes this the final step of faith.

I Want to share a dream the LORD gave me regarding this.... I was standing in a church, full of people, the service was going on as normal, but a section of the church was chained off from people going there, which was at the alter. There was a large chasm there where the alter was like they had chained it off so as not to allow anyone to fall in. The LORD showed me in that dream that this was the place of complete faith in Him, In times past many would make their way to the alter and leap into His arms, now the churches have closed off this area of the church, so that the people of God would remain in the pews instead of coming into His arms. When we leap from this alter He gives us Wings like eagles. But we cannot Know we have those wings till our faith is so strong in him, that we simply leap and trust in Him. The Wings of Eagles are the wings of a saint. You can forever live with clipped wings, or you can learn to fly as the saints do.

God Bless.  

 

Hebrews 5:¹³ For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

You are back to oranges and apples again; just a different variety.  The truth is, gifts of the spirit are for the church, and the church should be mature in the word of righteousness. There is no "one is greater" for both are of God and both are for the church.  I have never seen anyone fight against the word of God as you have been. I have a novel idea: why not just BELIEVE Hebrews, and believe Acts 1 and 2? Both are scripture  and both are truth.

I am a teacher. That is the office God has given me.  The purpose of these gifts to the church is for the perfecting of the saints until we are all spiritual adults in Christ. 

Where as Pentecostalism was a step in the right direction it was not the final step in the Process.  Don't throw the baby out with the dirty water! As long as the church age exists, Pentecost will be the second work of Grace for all believers. Don't leave it behind! Do we leave salvation behind to go onto better things? NEVER!  I can only add to this by saying to all readers, don't try to do things YOUR way; as in "I want the anointing but Jesus, please, hold the tongues." Just come with an open heart after you are born again and tell Jesus you want what the early church got on the day of Pentecost! "Don't hold anything back - I want everything they got!"

. The Gifts of the Spirit lead to something better  It seems you are hopelessly lost in this subject!  If one is sick, their ministry will be halted or severely slowed down. If one is born with a gimp arm or leg, it is God's will to make that person whole. The gifts of the spirit have nothing to do with "something better." Why is it you are always trying to compare apples with oranges? the gifts of the spirit are FOR THE CHURCH until the church is caught up. We can have the gifts - and operate in them by the Holy Spirit AND we can go on to grow in the Lord.  Why on earth would one chose either one and let the other go?  The gifts of the spirit are here to stay as long as the church is here, and growing in God has always been available and will until the church is called up. You amaze me.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers  These are PEOPLE gifts to the body, and are only remotely related to the 9 gifts of the spirit in chapter 12. Again,. apples and oranges! You amaze me. 

You proclaim yourself a teacher, which I do not doubt, But are you capable of taking that final step into the arms of Christ Jesus and receive him in his fullness?   Why do you imagine I have not? We are all growing in the Lord. If you say you have arrived - then I will know you have gone off the deep end, so to speak. I could say the same thing: are you capable of believing that tongues are for today and believing that if you prayed in tongues it would build you up in your spirit man - make you charged: ready to meet any challenge the devil may send your way? I will say it again, if I have not: if you don't pray in tongues, then you did not get what they got! 

not remain complacent in where you are and to grow into him in completeness?  All those on fire for God are growing.  Is this what your posts are about - that you imagine I am complacent?  Oh, perhaps you think "Pentecostals" in general are complacent!

Because you are comfortable where you are at you are able to look down on me and say my deception is a Picasso  You are mistaken: I am not looking down, I am raising the scriptures on this subject right in front of your eyes, so you cannot ignore them! The words you write prove the Picasso. How can I put this gently? I can't: you THINK you know, but in fact you don't. Every post proves this.  I hope you don't ever need bypass surgery, but if you do, PLEASE find someone that is an expert in that surgery?  Question: is a preacher preaching to the lost "looking down at them?"  Of course not! He preaches out of love for them, so they can receive what He has received: eternal life. In our case, it is the fullness of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of praying in tongues. It is receiving exactly what the early church received. Believe it or not, the truth is, it is for all who are born again.

But complacency is the self deception of the Laodicean church age.   IF...and again I say IF there is such a thing as the Laodicean age, I agree with you here. Just because you have conquered complacency in your life does not mean all others still need to.

You have the option now of rejecting or receiving what has been said.  When your words agrees with the written Word I receive it.

Make Jesus your all in all,  Obviously you imagine I have not.  You are mistaken. I gave my life to Him when I was seven years old. I have never gone back on that promise. God IS my all in all. 

now the churches have closed off this area of the church  I guess you have not gone to the same churches I have attended! In general though, world wide, and church wide, I agree: a hundred years ago it was normal practice to go to the altar and pray after every service in many different denominations. Today few churches practice this. Worse yet, most do not spend any time in personal prayer either - church wide. Of course there are exceptions.  And almost NO ONE takes personal time alone with God just to worship Him! The Muslims put us to shame here.  Today, if people pray, it is GIMME, Lord, GIMME! I need this Lord. I  have got to have that, Lord. Give me more happiness, give me more joy in my life.  God, I need money to pay the rent this month, and I can't miss my payment on my Cadillac! When does the average Christian ever take time just to worship God all by themselves? I think we agree here!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

That is what Pentecostals do with tongues all the time. They have a partial understanding and apply it to everyone, demand conformity, and when this conformity is demanded People will fake the understanding. This is Human nature. 

Jesus is Alive today as he was yesterday, as he will be. His promises are eternal. This fulness of Christ was offered to the early church, but they were not ready for it. Read the following passage it is all there, how the fulness of Christ and his perfection is for us and attainable, And God has permitted this in this day and age.  

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word (LOGOS) of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. (Heb. 5:12-6:3)

You can deny this all you want, But these promises are here for the receiving If god wills this. 

That is what Pentecostals do with tongues all the time. They have a partial understanding  You have proven over and over that you know very little about bible tongues.  I am quite sure it is your preconceptions. they are SO STRONG you cannot accurately read scriptures concerning tongues. Case in point? You still don't believe a speaker in tongues is speaking to God because NO MAN understands. Case in Point: when Paul says his understanding is unfruitful, it only means He cannot understand his own tongues because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS...the tongue speaker is praying - speaking to God, not to man. Yet you, who have never prayed in tongues, are trying to teach me about tongues.  Does this mean you will go to a surgeon when you need a tooth pulled?

You should get the book: The walk of the Spirit - the Walk of Power by Dave Roberson. It is without a doubt one of the best books on tongues ever written. I have one: if you promise to read it, I will send it to you.

As I have already said, many born again people today are growing up in Christ. God has caused many churches to begin preaching Holiness again - thank God! As this passage says, these things are foundational teaching; yet the church in general have MYPASSED them, tried to go on with the POWER to do so. We cannot skip our foundation!  Have you asked for someone who speaks in tongues to lay hands on you to receive? I suspect not. Yet, it is foundational! We don't skip the foundation to move on, we build a good solid foundation FIRST, then we go on. This was SO foundational and important that after Jesus said "go" He then said "wait." Yet the church in general has marched on, without the Spirit and His power. Most churches today are powerless; INCLUDING many pentecostal churches.  In the early church, if a man came blind, he left seeing! If a cripple was carried in, he left walking. Today the sick and/or the infirmed come and leave with no change.  The blind walk in blind and leave blind. This was not God's plan! In this respect I agree with you, the church today is sick! 

[iamlamad]

47 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Now, I have presented my case to you, ask yourself what denomination teaches these things? NONE. These teachings come from the one who sent me, will you hear Him? I am just a messenger Pointing you to Christ Jesus. I am not looking to start a church, or to create a following, neither am I defending any church, or speaking for any denomination of men. None of them teach what I have said here. 

I have already been pointed. I gave my life to Christ when I was seven. I received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit when I was 20. I would not turn back from either decision for anything. 

As for what you are teaching? There is only one passage that speaks of the Laodicean church.  I don't think it was meant to become "an age." Perhaps this is why no churches are teaching this. If you are preaching to the lukewarm, trying to stir them up, GO FOR IT!  But you will need to go in the power of the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, must of what you have written concerning tongues has been wrong; not according to scripture.  That is why I kept repeating the scriptures over and over, hoping that you would read them without preconceptions. I still say, if you don't pray in tongues, you are missing God's will for your life. It is for all who are born again as a bonus when they receive the "second, definite work of Grace." (John Wesley)

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Emmanuel is God WITH us. Not just upon you. He is standing at the door knocking waiting for you to let Him In. 

You need to learn some things: He stands at the door of the UNSAVED; asking to be allowed in. When Jesus came to earth, it was "God with us" as the human race.  When one is born again, it is God INSIDE US, as the seal of the Holy Spirit. When one then goes on to receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, then it is the Holy Spirit UPON - as His anointing.  I guess you need to see it:

Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[iamlamad]

DH: I have been thinking about this: I will agree that the church in general, worldwide is probably more lukewarm than it has ever been. So in this we agree. 

In my mind, what God is doing TODAY is preparing His people for His coming.  Of course He is always seeking the Lost, but with the church, He does not want to leave any behind.  

Do you agree?