Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[dhchristian]

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I purposely left out the verse numbers and the chapter break located in this passage, Because when read as one this passage point to John, the author of revelation being one of the two witnesses. Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

On the mount of transfiguration, the two witnesses seen there were Moses and Elijah, Most people see these two as the two witnesses of end times. But what they fail to see is what the two witnesses represent, that being the Law and the prophets. Both the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus. But the second time around the two witnesses will be the prophets and the New Testament, Pointing Jesus as the King of kings and Lord of lords, meaning Elijah and John The apostle will be the two witnesses. Think about this, Jesus said of John, answering Peter's question about John and his means of death, said; "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:22)

Is this proof that John is one of the two witnesses? No, But it certainly does sound like he will be one of them, and representing the New testament in Christ Jesus, Just like Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the prophets. What are your thought on the identity of the two witnesses, and the basis for this understanding? 

  

[Diaste]

Enoch and Elijah. The only two people taken to heaven alive. 

They come back to witness against the pact with death are killed and resurrected. 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Enoch and Elijah. The only two people taken to heaven alive. 

They come back to witness against the pact with death are killed and resurrected. 

If this is a requirement, then how is it that Moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration? He clearly died and was buried.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I have likewise presented the same assessment of the scriptures surrounding Rev 11:1 (before and after), but get little agreement.   I guess it's hard for people to ignore the scene on the mount of transfiguration with Elijah and Moses.   But Peter tells us that it is a glimpse/ picture of the "power and coming/ parousia" of Christ and his kingdom.   This same "honor and glory" that came to them on that day will come unto us (also)  when the day star arises in our hearts.   The point being of Moses & Elijah,  is that it will encompass both the living and the dead.   If it were just a picture of the 2 witnesses appearing there with Jesus, and those 2 witnesses are in fact John & Elijah,  people might get the wrong idea about the transformation of the saints.   They might think that it would only be the living that would be changed and not include the dead saints.   Some how,  that belief emerged among the Thessalonians because Paul had to tell them not to be sorrowful over those who sleep in Jesus.  Paul knew it and had to tell them so.   I guess they arrived at that faulty conclusion from Jesus saying that "he that shall endure... shall be saved", thinking that only the living would be saved at that time. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP

Some other things concerning John. he is the most qualified of the apostles, being at every major event from Transfiguration to being the only one who was at the cross when he was crucified, hence his most detailed account of the crucifixion. He was among the first to begin gathering the texts for the New testament together, and taught disciples of his own which are some of the early church fathers.  Jesus Said all the disciples would die a martyrs death, and they all did except John. He is the only one that died of old age and peacefully. 

I Have heard some discussion on Enoch as well, as a representative of the antediluvian fathers, But not enough to surpass Elijah, Some have said possibly James the brother of John the first disciple to be martyred, because  the two were known as the "sons of thunder" and he too was on the mount of transfiguration, I have also heard Peter and Paul as one of the two witnesses,  And of course Moses. I Would like to get some more input on these other theories to see if there is some validity to them? Like You I believe they will be John and Elijah, Old and new covenant and the promises of Both being fulfilled.  

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

If this is a requirement, then how is it that Moses appeared on the mount of transfiguration? He clearly died and was buried.

There are two recorded instance of people who did not die and were taken to heaven alive: Enoch and Elijah. The criteria is "Taken to heaven alive without dying" based on "it is given to men once to die, then the resurrection". Moses would not fit this criteria, as you say, he died and was buried.

Elijah will come first and restore all things before the Lord returns. I assume he is one witness. He also did not die a physical death. Enoch did not die a physical death. Literally the only reason I think he is the other witness as it is the one similarity between the two they share with no one else. If they are the two witnesses then it would fulfill the spiritual decree that they should die a physical death at some point. 

I don't think it would be fair for Moses to die, come back, then be killed by the beast and die a second time. 

As far as I know all people have died a physical death (except those alive right now) except two, and those two are coming back.

 

[dhchristian]

15 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There are two recorded instance of people who did not die and were taken to heaven alive: Enoch and Elijah. The criteria is "Taken to heaven alive without dying" based on "it is given to men once to die, then the resurrection". Moses would not fit this criteria, as you say, he died and was buried.

Elijah will come first and restore all things before the Lord returns. I assume he is one witness. He also did not die a physical death. Enoch did not die a physical death. Literally the only reason I think he is the other witness as it is the one similarity between the two they share with no one else. If they are the two witnesses then it would fulfill the spiritual decree that they should die a physical death at some point. 

I don't think it would be fair for Moses to die, come back, then be killed by the beast and die a second time. 

As far as I know all people have died a physical death (except those alive right now) except two, and those two are coming back.

I concede that what you say is true, But ask, why is it that people in Jerusalem will celebrate their death? Israel is awaiting Elijah to come, they set out an extra meal for him at Passover Seder. If it is Moses, they will celebrate his arrival even more. Enoch I am sure would be welcomed with open arms as well. I Just want to dig a little deeper here, I Just think there is more to this than we know.  

[douggg]

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I purposely left out the verse numbers and the chapter break located in this passage, Because when read as one this passage point to John, the author of revelation being one of the two witnesses. Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

What about at the time Nero?   There was a temple.

However, I agree the temple John measures is in the end times.

It doesn't say what the dimensions were.   Nor the reason for measuring it.     It could be because the temple at time will be a downsized temple to expedite getting the animal sacrifices going, with the plan being to expand the temple to a grand scale to take years to build.

It also could be that the dimensions of the temple could reveal the 666 connection to the name of the beast.

We don't know the answer to any of these questions.   At least I don't.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me now give my alternative theory.   In Zechariah 1 we have mention of 4 carpenter's/ artisan/ craftsmen. 

Verse list:    
Zec 1:18-21 KJV    Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. And the LORD shewed me four carpenters. Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.

From these verses, I make the connection with the trumpets and the scattering of the people dwelling in Jerusalem and the land of Israel/ Judah.   I could expand upon this thought,  but will only refer you to Eze 14:22ff, the 4 sore judgments upon Jerusalem.   After the removal of the unwanton,  unholy,  workers of iniquity (the tares), from the soon to be kingdom of God,  it is THEN that the children shine like the son "in the kingdom of their Father".  With that begins the building of the holy temple of the Lord. 

Zec 6:15 KJV And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

I believe that when the kingdom comes (at the end of the O.D.) then the Lord will send his angels to gather the elect into the kingdom.   Mark 13:27 says that the elect will be gathered from heaven and earth.   I believe this to be a post - rapture gathering of the elect.   Anyway,  getting back to the 4 carpenters,  we already know that John has the measuring reed (the ruler) and Zerubbabel has the plummet,  another tool of a carpenter,  and would qualify as being 2 of the 4 carpenters.   Maybe Eliakim is another?!? Do you see my point?  John may be referring to himself as one of the carpenters and not just simply as one of the witnesses.

I Have seen the Zerubbabel Link before, and that is a possibility.

What you write about the four carpenters is something I have not seen before. Without getting too into this, as I have to study this more, I always saw this prophecy as one that occurred over time, with the horns being Assyria, Babylon, Rome and the beast Kingdom, and the carpenters being Zerubbabel, and Joshua and then eventually Elijah who prepares the way and Jesus, Who is both King and priest. Let me get back on this, Good comment. 

[douggg]

I am thinking Moses and Elijah, because both of them would have a connection to the Jews and Israel.    And were not Christians during their lifetimes - like John.    Of course they both believe upon Jesus as the messiah and Lord and upon the gospel of Salvation.

They both appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration, appearing from nowhere.   Which in my thinking the two witnesses in Revelation, will seem to do the same, no known birth certificate.    I could be wrong.

[dhchristian]

Just now, douggg said:

What about at the time Nero?   There was a temple.

However, I agree the temple John measures is in the end times.

It doesn't say what the dimensions were.   Nor the reason for measuring it.     It could be because the temple at time will be a downsized temple to expedite getting the animal sacrifices going, with the plan being to expand the temple to a grand scale to take years to build.

It also could be that the dimensions of the temple could reveal the 666 connection to the name of the beast.

We don't know the answer to any of these questions.   At least I don't.

Doug,

I Know you said at one point that John Wrote revelation before the destruction of the temple (At least I think it was you?) Here is a link that touches on some of the early church fathers who say he was exiled in 90 -95 ad, and died in Ephesus circa 100ad. 

https://www.biblestudy.org/question/how-did-apostle-john-die.html

You will find some interesting details there.