Timing of the two witnesses, by working backwards

[The Light]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

Please look at my latest chart below in my  following post.

 

It is 2300 (morning and evenings, the daily sacrifice), not 1150 mornings and 1150 evenings.

In Daniel 12:11-12, the daily sacrifice stopped and the 1335 days containing the 1290 days (plus 45) days fit within the 2300 days.   

2300 days til Jesus returns to cleanse the temple of the beast, the false prophet, the AoD statue image (incarnated by Satan)

2300 days..............................................................................................Jesus's return

At an unknown day within the 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will be stopped, and the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:12-13 (of 2Thessalonians2:4) then takes place - of the Antichrist committing it, revealing himself as the man of sin.

 

 

I think the prophecy concerning the 2300 days in Daniel 8 has already occurred. It is about the second Temple and not the third. It has already been fulfilled.

[Justin Adams]

32 minutes ago, The Light said:

I think the prophecy concerning the 2300 days in Daniel 8 has already occurred. It is about the second Temple and not the third. It has already been fulfilled.

I think you may be correct too. We want to see everything from our 21 st century ideas and pop church. A great deal of it already happened and for the Israeli much is fulfilled. Second Temple period writings show yearnings for the tribes and the nations to be regathered, and the Messiah  ending their tribulations and for God to once again come back and be Glorified in Zion. Passover thru to Pentecost accomplished this but for a while, the Israelis generally do not see this. YET.

Glory came down at Pentecost, it is happening but not YET complete.

In the heavenlies and in the Throne is is accomplished - Yes, but NOT YET. In the Revelations, most of the interwoven visions are accomplished... YES, BUT NOT YET. It is still going on in this timeless Court Room (Revelations), and in God's mind it is done - but not YET. Much of our focus on prophesy and visions of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea are accomplished (IT IS FINISHED) but NOT YET.

Israel is being gathered and the nations - it is accomplished - BUT NOT YET. Saul said all Israel will be saved - a theological Israel as envisioned by God in the Beginning.. not the ethnic group, but the Saved group - All Israel, comprising All Believers. God's Chosen ones.

We should not be overly concerned with trying to put this all in linear timelines. None of them work unless one cheats. They are all incomplete. They are all mostly incorrect and can be misleading. All the eschatology in the world will not make our ideas work the way we hope they will. No point in arguing about a non-linear set of possible outcomes from an inconclusive set of overlapping visions that may or may not have already occurred...

Edited August 10, 2019 by Justin Adams

[The Light]

23 hours ago, douggg said:

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You are making an interpretation but have come to the wrong conclusions, and are calling your conclusions facts.  

No, I'm saying that no interpretation is necessary. The scripture speaks for itself. For example:

John 11

³⁵ Jesus wept.

We don't need to interpret anything in this verse. Jesus wept means Jesus wept. No other explanation or interpretation is needed. IT IS FACT.

The same applies here in Dan 12. There are 1290 for the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the Abomination of Desolation. This is scriptural fact. We don't need any false conclusions here. The verses speak for themselves. As for your incorrect and unnecessary interpretation, you have no explanation what for what occurs on day 1290. You mere add 45 days to it and say Jesus returns on day 1335. You say it takes 45 days to assemble an army. You just pull this out of your hat. Show a scripture that proves this. I already know that there isn't.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

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The 1335 days and the 1290 days both have to do with Jesus's return.   

The stoppage of the sacrifices and the AoD setup, go hand in hand, 1335 days before Jesus's return. 

 

Absolutely not. The daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. 1290 days later the AOD is set up. That is when those in the nation of Israel are to flee.

 

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The 1290 days are from that day that the Aod is setup to the sixth seal, the heavens parting, and the revealing of Jesus in great power and glory.

Totally incorrect. The scripture clearly tells up what the 1290 days are. There are 45 days from the AOD being set up to the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. The 45 days are the great tribulation.

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It corresponds to the sequence of Matthew 24:29-30.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  (the sixth seal event)

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (the world sees Jesus before the throne of God): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and (45 days later Jesus descends to earth) they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Yes Matt 24 is the 6th seal event. However, the Wrath of God is going to begin with the opening of the 7th seal. This means that Jesus cannot be setting up His kingdom in Matt 24. He is coming for the gathering from heaven and earth. This is the great multitude that your see in Rev 7.

 

 

 

 

[The Light]

23 hours ago, douggg said:

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stoppage of the sacrifices and AoD setup is determined by  subtracting 1335 days from day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years) = setup on day 1185

Daily sacrifice taken away on day 1185. From that time to the AOD is 1290 as is shown in the scripture.

 

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from day 1185 there are 1290 days to the sixth seal event highlighted in yellow above.

On day 2475 the AOD is set up. (1185+1290). Then 45 days later Jesus returns and all eyes will see Him. It is a gathering, a rapture event just prior to the Day of the Lord.

Matt 24

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thes 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Jesus is coming in Matt 24 and at the 6th seal, to GATHER His elect from heaven and earth. HE IS NOT COMING TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM. He will set up his Kingdom at His return in Rev 20.

The Day of the Lord begins at his coming in Rev 6, the 6th seal. The seventh seal needs to be opened and all the trumpet judgements and bowls have to happen BEFORE Armageddon can occur.

 

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     Terrified, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to fight against Jesus, Psalms 2, why do the heather rage and imagine a vain thing?

At the end of the 45 days, on day 2520, Jesus descends to earth, coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and destroys the kings and their armies.

 

Your error is not understanding that the 70th week does not include the Wrath of God and which is inside the 1000 year Day of the Lord.

Second error is not understanding that Jesus is coming in Matt 24 for the gathering that is prior to the day of the Lord. He is not coming to set up his kingdom. Armageddon does not occur until the end of the trumpets and bowls.

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

You say it takes 45 days to assemble an army. You just pull this out of your hat. Show a scripture that proves this. I already know that there isn't.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

The stopping of the daily sacrifice til the AoD setup is actually an unknown amount of time.      Look at my chart again, where I show the stoppage of the daily sacrifice.   From then a series of events take place, that are in the bible - but not in Daniel 12:11 - before the AoD is setup (placed in the Temple).

It can't be known because no one knows when daily sacrifice is stopped on the timeline; no one knows between then and the revealed man of sin being killed on the timeline; no on knows how long he is dead; no one knows from him coming back to life that the image of him is made.  

After all those things, the image is placed in the temple on day 1185, making the temple desolate due to the AoD.    From the AoD setup, 1290 days to the sixth seal.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Based on the sixth seal, the biggest event since creation - the Revealing of Jesus in great power and glory before the throne of God in heaven, the very universe parted in half.    The immensity of that event demands that the 1290 days from when the AoD setup is the countdown to that day.     That leaves 45 days until the end of the 1335 days.

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There are three things that will make the temple desolate (in chronological order).

1.  the Transgression of Desolation act by the Antichrist sitting in the temple

Then added to by:

2.  the Abomination of Desolation statue image placed in the temple

Then added to by:

3.  the statue image incarnated by Satan.

Edited August 10, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Your error is not understanding that the 70th week does not include the Wrath of God and which is inside the 1000 year Day of the Lord.

Second error is not understanding that Jesus is coming in Matt 24 for the gathering that is prior to the day of the Lord. He is not coming to set up his kingdom. Armageddon does not occur until the end of the trumpets and bowls.

No, I am not in error, the bowls of wrath takes place before the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon, in Revelation  16:16.

Regarding the Day of the Lord, the beginning of the Day of the Lord is triggered when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. Which is the transgression of desolation act.       The Day of the Lord has no end.   

Differently, coming not long after the transgression of desolation,   the abomination of desolation the statue image is placed in the temple - that's what triggers the great tribulation.

Regarding Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.   After Jesus returns, he sends out his angels to bring all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel.   It is in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus leaves none of them in the nations.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

 

Are you trying to factor in the "we are not appointed to wrath" in 1Thessalonians5, to reason that God's wrath does not take place until into the millennium - because in your view the rapture takes place in Matthew 24:31, in a post trib rapture view ?

If so, you have a lot of misinterpretations.  

The rapture event is actually an anytime event - as long as it takes place before the triggering of the Day of Lord beginning..     The triggering of the Day of the Lord beginning is when the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4, suddenly and unexpected by the Jews, goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

btw, you don't have to max the font size.   It doesn't affect me.   If you bold your text, that you want to emphasize, I will understand that you are emphasizing the text.

 

[douggg]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

1 - We know that there will be two mighty Beasts upon the earth, one different from the other, something like iron and clay, but they will reign together over the earth.

2 - We know that each of these Beasts - two men - one Gentile and one Jewish - will reign for a period of 1,260 days or 42 months each one.

One from the gentile nations, specifically from the end times Roman Empire, the EU.   One from Israel (the false prophet).

The first beast is a king.   The second beast is a false prophet.  

The 1260 days in Revelation pertains to the two prophets.

The 42 months pertains to the beast, and his armies under him.

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

4 - The FIRST Beast - the first MAN -  will reign FIRST for 42 months as it is written in Revelation 13: v.5 - he has on his head a blasphemous name.   -   Which man wears a blasphemy name on his head?

  The first beast will be related to the Caesar family.    The Julio-Claudian Caesars considered themselves as "gods".   That's the blasphemy.    He will also be a Jew, descended from King David.  (the abominable branch in Isaiah 14:19=20.  Jesus is the righteous branch.)

 

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

5 - Ended the FIRST period of 42 months of the FIRST Beast (Rev.13:v.5), afterwards will be established the Abomination of Desolation   - AD signifies the place that belongs to the Lord JESUS will be usurped by the Beast like a lamb, but this MAN speaks as a Dragon, this MAN is a false lamb, a false messiah, who will be enthroned on the temple of God in Jerusalem shewing himself that he is God, and will oppose and exalte himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - 2Thes.2 -  and this second Beast will reign for other 1.260 days or 42 months.     

The abomination of desolation is a thing, the image that the false prophet has the people of the world make.    In similitude like the golden calf, that the people participated in making in the exodus.

Differently, the 2Thessalonians2:4 sitting in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood is an action, not a thing, but an act.    It will be the transgression of desolation, spoken of in Daniel 8:12-13.

The false prophet is not a false messiah.   The false prophet will emulate what Elijah the prophet did in calling fire down from heaven.

What you haven't addressed is the head on the first beast that is mortally wounded and why.   

The reason is because the seventh king, after becoming the Antichrist, goes into the temple sits and claims to have achieved God- hood.   In Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person killed for the action.    Then in Isaiah 14:19-20, in disdain for the person, God bring him back to life - which the person then becomes the beast, worshiped for seemingly overcome death.      It will be the strong delusion that God sends for people who rather believe a lie than the truth.

I show the transgression of desolation, followed by the abomination of desolation  on my chart.    Each horizontal line segment represents time passing.     One of the critical things you need to do in your eschatology is to know there is a difference between the ToD, transgression of desolation, and the AoD, abomination of desolation.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Not me, but the Word of God says that the 7 heads (of this religious MONSTER) are 7 mountains and 7 kings.  Now, what matters is identifying what are these 7 mountains, on which the woman - the Great Whore that rides upon the Beast - sits, and also who these 7 kings are.  By the way, one of the 7 heads (7 mountains) will be mortally wounded.  Strange, no? Can or may a mountain be wounded? No, of course not. But now, what matters is identifying what these 7 mountains are. 

Hi Oseas, five of the 7 kings had already fallen back in John's day.   One was ruling at the time.   The RCC had not developed then.    So the kings cannot be popes.

The kings are related to Rome.   But not the RCC.

I agree with you that the woman who will be destroyed by fire will be the Vatican, in Rome.

The Vatican is an element of Mystery Babylon the Great, but is not Mystery Babylon the Great - because the Vatican/RCC cannot be blamed for...

Revelation 8;24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Mystery, Babylon the Great is the unseen kingdom of Satan and the Fallen angels.

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The Pope/Papacy are not any of the characters in Revelation, other than the Vatican being destroyed by fire in Revelation 17:15-16 .

Edited August 13, 2019 by douggg

[douggg]

21 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Hi brother, sorry I did not understand whom you are referring to. You said "one (king) was ruling at that time" ; who was him? And five kings were fallen, who were them in your interpretation; and also the seventh who had came not yet?  Who is him?

Oseas, I am thinking the one king was Nero.    I know there is some controversy on when John received Revelation.    Some say 60 something AD.   Others says 90 AD. 

I think you wrote Evaristus (died 107 AD), as the first king, but that would not work because five of the kings had already fallen by the time Revelation was given, whether in the 60's or 90's AD.

The 7 kings are tied to the place where the 7 mountains are Rome.   So, the kings are all of the Julio-Claudian, that's what the history people call them, clan of Caesars.   Historically, Nero was the last of that clan.

The first of that clan was Julius Caesar (although not an emperor, but it is not necessary that he be emperor) a dictator for life, after he crossed the Rubicon.     Augustus (also called Octavian followed.   He was the first emperor.

1.  Julius Caesar

2. Augustus Caesar

3. Tiberius

4. Caligula

5.  Claudius

6.  Nero

7.   End times little horn person, leader of the EU, democratically selected, before Gog/Magog.

(perceived to be the messiah by the Jews following Gog/Magog, and anointed the King of Israel, making him the Antichrist, for a while)

8.   The beast, the little horn person after he is killed and brought back to life.    leader of the EU, but as dictator.

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Both the 7 kings and the 10 kings are associated with the Roman Empire.    The 7 kings are sequential, and none of the first six can be the Pope, because the Pope did not exist until the 3rd century.

21 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The Vatican/RCC together with the false messiah of the Jews - the Beast like a lamb, a false lamb, a false messiah, AN IMPOSTER - each one of these two Beasts and their followers are blamed by persecutions of the true people of God through out the time.  

The perceived Jewish messiah of Judaism is yet to come.    That's who the Jews are looking for.     

The Vatican, the RCC, has a core belief that Jesus is the messiah.    But the Judaism messiah, would not agree with the Vatican position regarding Jesus - so there is not going to be any teaming up - if that is what you intended to say?

Regardless, neither the Vatican, nor the Jews are responsible for all of humanity that has been killed.

Revelation 8:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

21 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Who is able to make WAR against the Beast?  
 -   I would like to know each one of them  

That particular expression is from Revelation 13, regarding the beast.   After he has killed the two witnesses.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In Revelation 11, the two witnesses will have been calling plagues upon the earth, as the Jews flee into the mountains.    Making a great hardship on the people of the world.

The beast makes war on them and kills them, although previous efforts were unsuccessful.

So that is where the expression "who is able to make war against the beast" will come from.

That and he will have just come back to life, from being mortally wounded.

Edited August 14, 2019 by douggg