Do you believe in Predestination?

[Billiards Ball]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:04 AM, ilovejcsog said:

Seems to be a really tough question.  So many different opinions.

I am always concerned about those left out without a choice to be Gods.

I used to believe in Predestination but I guess I was destined not to.

All five times predestination is mentioned in the NT it is tied to God's foreknowledge of actions, not forcing our actions, and to the destiny of born again people to be made morally perfect for Heaven.

If God predestines rather than gives us free will, He predestines people to Hell, which is not love, and God IS love.

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

Umm .... no.

1) Predestination, in the Bible, is ALWAYS positive (check a concordance - Rom. 8 and Eph. 1).

2) Since it means that God has decided the destiny of those predestined, it cannot be changed.

3) Unregenerate fallen man's will is in slavery to sin, so it does not have the freedom to do that which is contrary to its nature.  This is why we MUST be born again, in order to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

Ummm no...

It means God who is omniscient (knowing all things)

knew from the beginning of all things who would

and who would not believe in his Son.

 

[David1701]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Ummm no...

It means God who is omniscient (knowing all things)

knew from the beginning of all things who would

and who would not believe in his Son.

 

You just had to have one more "m" in your "Ummm", didn't you? 

None of the points you made are at issue; they also do not contradict the points I made.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I used to believe in Predestination but I guess I was destined not to.

All five times predestination is mentioned in the NT it is tied to God's foreknowledge of actions, not forcing our actions, and to the destiny of born again people to be made morally perfect for Heaven.

If God predestines rather than gives us free will, He predestines people to Hell, which is not love, and God IS love.

This is a false dichotomy and straw man salad; still, I suppose it is Summer.

[Billiards Ball]

51 minutes ago, David1701 said:

This is a false dichotomy and straw man salad; still, I suppose it is Summer.

Let's narrow the focus:All five times predestination is mentioned in the NT it is tied to God's foreknowledge of actions, not forcing our actions, and to the destiny of born again people to be made morally perfect for Heaven. They are predestined--due to assurance--to be made like Christ, later.

And the most common passages used for predestination regarding salvation are badly interpreted (the clay pots of the OT are nations, not people; Esau never served Jacob, rather he received presents from Jacob) or insert imagined words (God so loved [a subset of!] the world that He gave His Son so that whoever [is elect!] will never perish [if they persevere!] . . . ).

The sects that believe that election compromises free will also tend to reject Israel and favor the Palestinian cause and/or teach works salvation because they replace Israel in the NT with the "elect". I'm okay with people who believe in election determining salvation where they still have a trust gospel, not works, and a zeal for Israel.

[David1701]

35 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Let's narrow the focus:All five times predestination is mentioned in the NT it is tied to God's foreknowledge of actions, not forcing our actions, and to the destiny of born again people to be made morally perfect for Heaven. They are predestined--due to assurance--to be made like Christ, later.

How many errors is it possible to make, in one post?  You must be trying for some kind of record!

In the Bible, predestination is NEVER tied to God's foreknowledge of our actions.

Rom. 8:29, 30 (VW)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph. 1:4,5 (VW)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph. 1:11 (VW) In Him also we have been assigned to an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

This is all about what God does and not remotely about God's foreknowledge of our actions.

Quote

And the most common passages used for predestination regarding salvation are badly interpreted (the clay pots of the OT are nations, not people; Esau never served Jacob, rather he received presents from Jacob) or insert imagined words (God so loved [a subset of!] the world that He gave His Son so that whoever [is elect!] will never perish [if they persevere!] . . . ).

Not one of the passages to which you allude here is about predestination! 

The OT "clay vessels" are about God's sovereignty and Romans 9 is about election (which is different from predestination, although they are related).

John 3:16 is also not about predestination.

Quote

The sects that believe that election compromises free will also tend to reject Israel and favor the Palestinian cause and/or teach works salvation because they replace Israel in the NT with the "elect". I'm okay with people who believe in election determining salvation where they still have a trust gospel, not works, and a zeal for Israel.

What a jumble of nonsense!

Election does not compromise free will, since there is no such thing as free will (unless you mean Compatibilistic Free Will, in which case they are fully in accord anyway).

Please quote where those who believe in God's sovereignty in salvation, reject Israel and favour the so-called Palestinians.  It is usually FREE WILL Dispensationalists who do this!

The elect includes everyone who is, or will be, saved, whether Jew or Gentile.  The elect cannot replace Israel, since the Israel of God are saved and Gentiles who are saved are grafted in.

It is FREEWILLERS who sometimes teach salvation by works - NEVER those who believe in God's sovereignty in salvation.

Edited July 14, 2020 by David1701

[JohnD]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

You just had to have one more "m" in your "Ummm", didn't you? 

None of the points you made are at issue; they also do not contradict the points I made.

Ummmmmmmmm sure they are, and I certainly did.

[David1701]

12 hours ago, JohnD said:

Ummmmmmmmm sure they are, and I certainly did.

Here is what you posted.

"It means God who is omniscient (knowing all things)

knew from the beginning of all things who would

and who would not believe in his Son."

God is omniscient, which means that he knows everything.  All genuine Christians agree about this.  It is not a point of contention.

Of course God knows who will and will not believe in his Son.  He GIVES repentance and faith in his Son; but, those to whom he does not give it, remain in their unbelief. (N.B. the Bible says that it is repentance and faith that God gives, NOT merely some supposed ability to repent and believe.)

2 Tim. 2:25,26 (EMTV)

25 in meekness instructing those that oppose, if God perhaps may give them repentance, to a full knowledge of the truth,
26 and they regain their senses and escape out of the snare of the devil, having been captured alive by him to do his will. 

Phil. 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Thess. 3:2 (EMTV) and that we may be delivered from evil and wicked men; for not all have faith.

[JohnD]

So?

Even our faith / our belief is a gift from God.

Which he gives to those he knows will choose his Son.

You're getting in deeper and deeper.

As do most who underestimate God and his abilities.

Ahahahahahaha!

[Billiards Ball]

20 hours ago, David1701 said:

How many errors is it possible to make, in one post?  You must be trying for some kind of record!

In the Bible, predestination is NEVER tied to God's foreknowledge of our actions.

Rom. 8:29, 30 (VW)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph. 1:4,5 (VW)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Eph. 1:11 (VW) In Him also we have been assigned to an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

This is all about what God does and not remotely about God's foreknowledge of our actions.

Not one of the passages to which you allude here is about predestination! 

The OT "clay vessels" are about God's sovereignty and Romans 9 is about election (which is different from predestination, although they are related).

John 3:16 is also not about predestination.

What a jumble of nonsense!

Election does not compromise free will, since there is no such thing as free will (unless you mean Compatibilistic Free Will, in which case they are fully in accord anyway).

Please quote where those who believe in God's sovereignty in salvation, reject Israel and favour the so-called Palestinians.  It is usually FREE WILL Dispensationalists who do this!

The elect includes everyone who is, or will be, saved, whether Jew or Gentile.  The elect cannot replace Israel, since the Israel of God are saved and Gentiles who are saved are grafted in.

It is FREEWILLERS who sometimes teach salvation by works - NEVER those who believe in God's sovereignty in salvation.

Hard for me to continue much past this: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined" does NOT link foreknowledge to predestination . . . ?!!

It's a sequence, foreknew (who would trust via free will), predestined them (to Christlikeness, partial likeness now, full likeness at the Rapture), these are called, justified, glorified (born again, saved).

 

I'm also struggling through Rom 8 "those whom He foreknew" is "all about what God does and not remotely about God's foreknowledge of our actions." . . . ?!

 

John 3:16 is interpreted by Calvinists, to fit Calvinism, using added words, "God so loved [a subset of] the people of the world, that He [forced] whoever trusts to not perish [if they continue with perseverance of the saints]." You may not be a Calvinist, but the ultimate logical end of predestination regarding salvation/total sovereignty regarding election is Calvinism.

 

I'm further troubled by your combative spirit. "How many errors is it possible to make, in one post? You must be trying for some kind of record!" Either speak to me as your brother in Christ or argue with someone else, if the goal is to be hurtful, divisive.