GreyJay Posted September 30, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 59 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2019 I'm mulling over some ideas. Just going to share this here for people to consider, comment on. Jesus, in Luke 4, references The Sidonite widow and Naaman the Syrian, and I'm sure we could spend a lot of time, beneficially, talking about why Jesus is talking about these two particular individuals to this particular crowd. And that would be a great conversation. I just want to talk about Naaman for the moment. So you know the story... Naaman's a Syrian/Aramean military commander who, apparently, raids Israel and takes its women as slaves. Anyway, Naaman contracts leprosy, and his wife's Israeli slave tells him the prophet of God in Israel can cure him. So long story short, that's exactly what happens -- through Elisha, God does heal him. Then there's an interesting exchange (2 Kings 5:17-19) “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.” “Go in peace,” Elisha said. Now. I realize there are number of ways you could read this regarding superstitions. It seems fairly evident that if Naaman had the option to never set foot in a temple of Rimmon again, he wouldn't have. But he wants Elisha to know that even though he has to enter the temple of Rimmon, he won't be worshiping Rimmon in his heart. And to Elisha, that seems acceptable. If you're trying to make a "rule" out of all this, it seems to contradict the "Daniel in captivity/fourth man in the flames stories," so I'm not sure the point is for us to distill a law/rule/commandment out of that aspect it. I think the actual point is, God sees through what people appear as on the outside, and sees the true, inner person. We can tend to get hung up on distilling scriptures into rules and using those rules like blunt weapons on each other, instead of reading scripture to seek after the heart of God in it. We could easily be people who, in Elisha's position, would command Namaan to take a stand, probably risking his life, citing definitive-sounding scriptures with Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah as our evidence. We could even tell ourselves we would be acting in love by insisting so. But how to we get to place in our lives where we can be like Elisha where we would know to say "go in peace," seeing past the superstition, knowing that it has no real power (1 Cor 8:4-6, Jeremiah 10:5), and catching a glimpse of the heart of a person as seen through God's eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyJay Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 59 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 2 hours ago, DustyRoad said: Through resting in spirit and walking with faith, GreyJay. By loving them as we love our own selves: by placing their needs above our own. As Jesus Christ did for us, we're called to do the same for others. I feel like that takes a lifetime to learn how to do! But I guess that's kind of the point... to ever press on toward the goal, the upward calling of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,675 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2019 We can't dismiss idol worship as superstition. The power behind idolatry is demonic. 1Co 10:19 ESV What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 1Co 10:20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 1Co 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. I understand that you are saying we need to see a person's heart. We need to have compassion on them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyJay Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 59 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 Hey @Willa. I certainly agree that we should not worship idols. Are you familiar with the passage from Jeremiah I briefly referenced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2019 Another word of superstitions is idolatry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2019 @GreyJay Your post brings up an important issue. Thank you for posting it. I agree with seeing through unclear thinking to see the person that God wants to save. This idea is the basis of Paul's Mars Hill message. On the other end of the spectrun is the issue of true Idolatry. I don't like that word because it conveys either incorrect concepts or incomplete concepts to many modern readers. There is a sense of Idolatry that includes anything that consumes more interest than God does in a person's life. That certainly is an issue to be addressed, but does not make it stand out as interfering with the ability to know God. There is a sense of Idolatry that includes dabling in spiritual world. This is more along the line you are referring to and is very common throughout the world. In the "Intellectual" west, many people read their horoscopes, most out of curiosity. In the more spiritually awake parts of the world, people have all sorts of culturally ingrained beliefs about minor aspects of life being involved or requiring special actions to gain blessings or avoid curses. These things can and will be eliminated as a person grows in knowing the Living God. If we define Idolatry as looking to any entity other than God Most High for our existence and salvation, we hit the most sinister and diabolical issue. This issue is spiritually fatal to a person, in other words, it will prevent them from becoming spiritually Alive or Born Again. I believe that for Satan and his legions, this is always the goal for socieites. And I believe that when a society progresses far enough along this path that no-one will turn again to be Born Again God Most High intervenes in a conclusive fashion. I think we see this in the Flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah (et al). I think we see it heading that way at the Tower of Babel with God intervening in a way that accomplished his dispersion goal while defeating the Idolatry before too many forgot the God Most High. When someone sees God working around idolatry, like Paul on Mars Hill, I use the second definition and rejoice to see God work. So when some respond with absolute refusal to consider anything related to Idolatry, I use the last definition and say "TRUE TRUE" while I shudder at the thoughts of the consequences of such Idolatry. Using the last definition of Idolatry and looking at the spread of Western society, I see the current major threat to civilization as Intellectualism. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.47 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Excellent, Greyjoy! Amen, as they say...I agree. We christians can be quite the taskmasters, if we are not on our toes. I believe what you are saying is fundamental to our experience 'in Him'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethelord Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 667 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 1,540 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2019 Hi GreyJay, Since Naaman was just at the very beginning stage of understanding small portions of God’s truth. He understood enough to know that bowing down before an idol was wrong. When Elisha said go in peace to Naaman, I think he was leaving it up to God and Naaman. We know that God in His Word is clear on compromising and worshiping at their alters (even if it is only outwards compromise and not an inward compromise). I don’t think I would be loving if I didn’t share this important fact to the new believer. There are ways to minister to someone without insulting or judging them. I would just be sharing God's truth and point them to the verses. But again, it would have to be done gently and lovingly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 350 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,514 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,415 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) Hello GreyJay, If I'm understanding the story of Naaman correctly and what you're topic is suggesting, I believe this is something comparable possibly? I do not pray to the mother of Jesus or saints for intercession. I don't confess my sins to a priest and ask forgiveness and repentance. I don't call a leader of a religion holy father, etc. I don't believe in last rites or purgatory, at your last heartbeat your destiny is sealed for all eternity, you get the point. On a couple of occasions upon the death of a sibling and close friend, I've attended Catholic services for funerals. We know why we attend services of loved ones of different belief's and faiths. We do it out of love, respect for the family and final goodbyes of the deceased, and share memories, pain and sorrow, lifting one another up. Personally speaking, I don't attend to take part of any ritual performed or their belief's. I pray to the one living Father, through the only mediator between us and our Father, our advocate and Lord and Savior who died on the Cross for our sins, our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe Naaman was sincere and between a rock and a hard place. What benefit might have derived from Naaman standing and speaking his new belief? The man of God Elisha did not condemn or rebuke Naaman, but to go in peace. Just my thoughts... Edited October 1, 2019 by Dennis1209 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted October 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.47 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted October 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: Hello GreyJay, If I'm understanding the story of Naaman correctly and what you're topic is suggesting, I believe this is something comparable possibly? I do not pray to the mother of Jesus or saints for intercession. I don't confess my sins to a priest and ask forgiveness and repentance. I don't call a leader of a religion holy father, etc. I don't believe in last rites or purgatory, at your last heartbeat your destiny is sealed for all eternity, you get the point. On a couple of occasions upon the death of a sibling and close friend, I've attended Catholic services for funerals. We know why we attend services of loved ones of different belief's and faiths. We do it out of love, respect for the family and final goodbyes of the deceased, and share memories, pain and sorrow, lifting one another up. Personally speaking, I don't attend to take part of any ritual performed or their belief's. I pray to the one living Father, through the only mediator between us and our Father, our advocate and Lord and Savior who died on the Cross for our sins, our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe Naaman was sincere and between a rock and a hard place. What benefit might have derived from Naaman standing and speaking his new belief? Just my thoughts... Conjecture--he may have gotten killed, but the Lord had a different plan for him. He asked the man of God and was given his answer. The lesson I get from this is that the Lord is 'reasonable' and His primary gauge is the 'heart'. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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