The parable of the Tares

[Retrobyter]

On 10/10/2019 at 10:51 PM, eileenhat said:

...

My hypothesis is that there was a foot soldier from God for every soul judged.  Those that were apostate were judged.  I have already posted several times this was a soul judgement and not a physical judgement as Rev. 20:4 reveals in its wording about the saint's souls being resurrected (only).  So another mystery there as well.

Shabbat shalom, eileenhat.

"Soul" (Hebrew "nefesh") means an "air-breathing creature."

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

What I'm talking about is YOUR statement just now: "He comes next FOR His church, then comes 7 plus years later WITH His church ... ." He comes "all the way here" from ... "heaven," to pick up His church, and then LEAVES and goes "all the way back" with His church only to come "all the way back" again with His church seven plus years later? That's excessive.

But, Paul's Gospel IS the Messiah's Gospel! He's not changing things! 

I'm going to call it the "Complete Gospel" that is being missed. I'm not talking about the "Full Gospel" where people add onto the Gospel AFTERWARD by talking about "baptism of the Spirit, miracles, healing, and speaking in tongues" as though there was some "second blessing"; I'm talking about the REST of the Gospel presented BEFORE the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah! Paul's Gospel simply ADDS the "Death, Burial, and Resurrection" to Yeshua`s proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom!

This is not a difficult concept: I live on 41st street. Walmart is on 71st street. If I wish to leave my home and go to Walmart, I must change locations: I LEAVE 41st street and head in the direction of 71st street - in my city that would be heading south.

In the same way, Jesus is currently on planet heaven, at the right hand of the Father on the throne. He has been there 2000 years preparing HOMES for us. When the Father tells Him it is time, He will LEAVE heaven and head for planet earth as seen in 1 Thes. 4: as He leaves He brings with Him the Spirits of those saints who have passed.  He will then raise the dead in Christ, then change those who are alive and in Christ, and toGETHER we are escorted back to heaven where He prepared the homes for us.

7 years pass on earth: 7 trumpets sound, 7 vials are poured out. Jesus holds His marriage and supper in heaven.

Then, Jesus gathers the armies of heaven, all on white horses - one "army" being the church and bride of Christ - and then we leave planet heaven and descend to earth. I say "descend" for if these armies are visible approaching earth, people would look UP to see them.

Perhaps some members of the church will have swords and will join in the battle of Armageddon. It is not written.  This is NOT "excessive;" it is what the bible tells us. He is coming TWICE more: first FOR us, then later WITH us.

Sorry, Paul's gospel IS NOT Jesus' Gospel. Jesus' gospel was that HE was the Messiah: if people would BELIEVE in Him as the Messiah, they would be saved. The sermon on the mount is a great example of the gospel of the Kingdom. It was pointed at the JEWS. Jesus came only to the Jews. And of course part of Jesus' gospel is that there is a PHYSICAL kingdom coming.  There was no talk of His shed blood until the end, just before he died. Sorry, out of time.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Like departed, because there is a separation involved, and the "dearly departed" as associated with death physically. Escorted seems too "Physical" and has no separation to it.... "Our spirit and soul is escorted to heaven" Our Spirit and soul has departed for heaven"…? I think the Biblical concept for the dead is "Sleep". Daniel was told And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)  OR "REST" But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (Daniel12;3)

At any rate you understand me now, I think I will use "sleep".

Sleep has another meaning, so it could be confusing.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Can we use just a little common sense? If we wish to join the birds flying in the air, we would have to go UP no matter where on earth one lived. Birds flying are UP unless someone is on top of a mountain looking down. Therefore when the dead in Christ come out of their graves, the graves are "down" but the bodies will fly UP.

If you wish to call God's home where His throne is as New Jerusalem, I will not argue. The vast majority of people call it heaven - and for good reason: authors in the bible called it heaven.

Matthew 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 6:1  Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Matthew 7:11  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mark 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mark 11:30  The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

Luke 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven

Luke 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Acts 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

1 Corinthians 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Hebrews 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

If "heaven" is good enough for all these verses describing where God dwells, I don't mind using "heaven" myself as where God dwells.  I think you missed it.

By the way, no "right turns." we will be escorted right to the homes prepared in heaven.

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

You want to use a little sense? Please do! Most of the authors of the Bible DIDN'T call it "heaven," but called it "shaamaayim." Of course "heaven" - the "sky" - is "up!" However, the atmosphere of this planet is limited.

The atmosphere, made of physical substance, weighs something. That's why we can measure things like atmospheric pressure. When we say that the pressure is 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch), we are saying that the column of air above a square inch on the surface of the earth weighs 14.7 pounds. The higher one ascends, the weaker that atmospheric pressure will be because the fewer atoms in that column of air above a square inch of the surface at that height will be. Depending on what concentration of molecules you consider rarified enough to be considered "empty space," the height of the atmosphere is between 200 and 500 miles high.

GOD IS NOT LIMITED! He is "omnipresent," present everywhere! Where is God NOT? So, where does God dwell? EVERYWHERE! So, how is it that God even has an "abode?" 

On a clear day, when one looks up, what does one see? One sees blue sky from horizon to horizon 360 degrees around his location! It's as much of "everywhere" that one can see, especially if one is on the top of a mountain! So, where is God? He is in "heaven"; He's in the sky!

On a clear night, when one looks up, what does one see? One sees black sky with millions of stars. One is looking THROUGH the sky to the stars beyond. So, where is God? He is "above the heaven"; He's beyond the sky, as well, because He is EVERYWHERE!

In English, we have singular and plural in our nouns. In Hebrew, they have one other number: they have singular, DUAL, and plural forms of their nouns. Because they have the day sky and the night sky, their word for the "sky" is the dual word "shaamaayim," meaning both skies. This word was a word given to the skies by God Himself in the Creation as the name for the EXPANSE (Hebrew: raqiya`) that He created between the waters below and the waters above. He created a "bubble" of air between the waters below that bubble and the waters (in gaseous form) above the bubble, sandwiching the molecules of the atmosphere between the molecules of water (H2O). Thus, in the original Creation, there were TWO such expanses. The expanse between the waters, and another expanse beyond the upper water. Thus, the phrase "shmeey hashaamaayim," the "heaven of the heavens," was introduced by the same author, Moses, who wrote Genesis 1 and 2, in Deuteronomy 10:14. This phrase solely refers to the area we call "outer space," where the sun, moon, and stars exist. So, what does Deuteronomy 10:14 say?

Deuteronomy 10:14 (KJV)

14 Behold, the heaven (the gaseous skies) and the heaven of heavens (outer space) is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

When translated into Greek, then, we find two different words being used as adjectives - ouranios and epouranios. Ouranios is the adjective form of ouranos meaning "of or belonging to the sky." Tacking the word "epi" meaning "over, above, or upon" to the beginning of ouranios gives us "epouranios" meaning "of or belonging to above-the-sky."

When these words are translated into English, in most versions this information is lost. In the KJV, for example, both words are translated as "heavenly." So, when one comes to the word "heavenly," is it the word "ouranios" or the word "epouranios?" Does it mean "of or belonging to the sky" or "of or belonging to above-the-sky?" One will never know until he or she goes back to the Greek.

For the Greek, when looking at the nouns following prepositions, there are three prepositions that are usually used with "ouranos" (or its plural "ouranoi"): en, eis, and ex. However, the REAL thing to consider is this: When is the word singular and when is it plural?

I've looked up all the references you gave me and checked the Greek:

Matthew 5:16 - en tois ouranois (dative maculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 5:34 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Matthew 5:45 - en ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in [the]-skies")
Matthew 5:48 - ouranios (nominative masculine singular) "of-[the]-sky"
Matthew 6:1 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 6:9 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 6:20 - en ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in [the]-sky"
Matthew 7:11 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural)
Mark 11:25 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural)
Mark 11:30 - ex ouranou (genitive masculine singular)
Luke 10:20 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Luke 11:2 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Acts 7:55 - eis ton ouranon (accusative masculine singular) "into the sky"
1 Corinthians 15:47 - ex ouranou (genitive masculine singular) "out of-[the]-sky"
Hebrews 9:24 - eis auton ton ouranon (acccusative masculine singular) "into itself the sky"
1 Peter 3:22 - eis ouranon (accusative masculine singular) "into [the]-sky"
Revelation 4:1 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Revelation 4:2 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Revelation 11:19 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"

Now, let's look at the verses with these changes:

Matthew 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in the skies.

Matthew 5:34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither in the sky; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in [the]-skies: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is of-the-sky is perfect.

Matthew 6:1  Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in the skies.

Matthew 6:9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in the skies, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in [the]-sky, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Matthew 7:11  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in the skies give good things to them that ask him?

Mark 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in the skies may forgive you your trespasses.

Mark 11:30  The baptism of John, was it out of-[the]-sky, or of men? answer me.

Luke 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in the skies.

Luke 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in the skies, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in [the]-sky, so in earth.

Acts 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into the sky, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

1 Corinthians 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of-[the]-sky.

Hebrews 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into the sky itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into [the]-sky, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in the sky: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in the sky, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in the sky, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Isn't it interesting that, out of all these verses you've chosen, not a one of these use the word "epouranios?"

These verses are not suggesting where God lives, i.e., where He may be found; it's where one turns his or her head to face an omnipresent God!

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As one stands on the earth, graves are DOWN. Common sense then tells us, if someone comes OUT of a grave, they are going to move in an UPward direction.

Next, does one look DOWN to see clouds? No, one looks UP. Where is "air?" Is air in the ground? No, soil is in the ground. Air is UP.  

Therefore the word UP as KJV uses it makes good sense. The clouds are UP.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sure, but the word "ana" meaning "up" is NOT in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4! Many "graves" are actually tombs or crypts. When one is raised from the dead in one of those structures, one is NOT "down coming up!" Therefore, not everyone will be "moving in an UPward direction."

However, now your quote from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 DOES contain "ana" as part of the word "anasteesontai" translated as "will rise" in verse 16. The word literally means "shall stand up." But, when we get to verse 17, the word "harpageesometha," translated as "shall be caught up," does NOT contain "ana!" It literally means "shall be seized together."

Now, while "clouds" and "air" are frequently found "UP" from a person standing upon the earth, there's ABSOLUTELY NO indication within these verses that we will go any higher! It's an AIR transport! It's a form of "mass transit system" provided by the messengers ("aggeloi" or "angles") to get us from one side of the earth to the other, to get us from wherever we may be on the surface of the earth to where the Messiah will be, not to get us to some place beyond the "heaven of stars!"

[iamlamad]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

You want to use a little sense? Please do! Most of the authors of the Bible DIDN'T call it "heaven," but called it "shaamaayim." Of course "heaven" - the "sky" - is "up!" However, the atmosphere of this planet is limited.

The atmosphere, made of physical substance, weighs something. That's why we can measure things like atmospheric pressure. When we say that the pressure is 14.7 psi (pounds per square inch), we are saying that the column of air above a square inch on the surface of the earth weighs 14.7 pounds. The higher one ascends, the weaker that atmospheric pressure will be because the fewer atoms in that column of air above a square inch of the surface at that height will be. Depending on what concentration of molecules you consider rarified enough to be considered "empty space," the height of the atmosphere is between 200 and 500 miles high.

GOD IS NOT LIMITED! He is "omnipresent," present everywhere! Where is God NOT? So, where does God dwell? EVERYWHERE! So, how is it that God even has an "abode?" 

On a clear day, when one looks up, what does one see? One sees blue sky from horizon to horizon 360 degrees around his location! It's as much of "everywhere" that one can see, especially if one is on the top of a mountain! So, where is God? He is in "heaven"; He's in the sky!

On a clear night, when one looks up, what does one see? One sees black sky with millions of stars. One is looking THROUGH the sky to the stars beyond. So, where is God? He is "above the heaven"; He's beyond the sky, as well, because He is EVERYWHERE!

In English, we have singular and plural in our nouns. In Hebrew, they have one other number: they have singular, DUAL, and plural forms of their nouns. Because they have the day sky and the night sky, their word for the "sky" is the dual word "shaamaayim," meaning both skies. This word was a word given to the skies by God Himself in the Creation as the name for the EXPANSE (Hebrew: raqiya`) that He created between the waters below and the waters above. He created a "bubble" of air between the waters below that bubble and the waters (in gaseous form) above the bubble, sandwiching the molecules of the atmosphere between the molecules of water (H2O). Thus, in the original Creation, there were TWO such expanses. The expanse between the waters, and another expanse beyond the upper water. Thus, the phrase "shmeey hashaamaayim," the "heaven of the heavens," was introduced by the same author, Moses, who wrote Genesis 1 and 2, in Deuteronomy 10:14. This phrase solely refers to the area we call "outer space," where the sun, moon, and stars exist. So, what does Deuteronomy 10:14 say?

Deuteronomy 10:14 (KJV)

14 Behold, the heaven (the gaseous skies) and the heaven of heavens (outer space) is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

When translated into Greek, then, we find two different words being used as adjectives - ouranios and epouranios. Ouranios is the adjective form of ouranos meaning "of or belonging to the sky." Tacking the word "epi" meaning "over, above, or upon" to the beginning of ouranios gives us "epouranios" meaning "of or belonging to above-the-sky."

When these words are translated into English, in most versions this information is lost. In the KJV, for example, both words are translated as "heavenly." So, when one comes to the word "heavenly," is it the word "ouranios" or the word "epouranios?" Does it mean "of or belonging to the sky" or "of or belonging to above-the-sky?" One will never know until he or she goes back to the Greek.

For the Greek, when looking at the nouns following prepositions, there are three prepositions that are usually used with "ouranos" (or its plural "ouranoi"): en, eis, and ex. However, the REAL thing to consider is this: When is the word singular and when is it plural?

I've looked up all the references you gave me and checked the Greek:

Matthew 5:16 - en tois ouranois (dative maculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 5:34 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Matthew 5:45 - en ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in [the]-skies")
Matthew 5:48 - ouranios (nominative masculine singular) "of-[the]-sky"
Matthew 6:1 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 6:9 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Matthew 6:20 - en ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in [the]-sky"
Matthew 7:11 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural)
Mark 11:25 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural)
Mark 11:30 - ex ouranou (genitive masculine singular)
Luke 10:20 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Luke 11:2 - en tois ouranois (dative masculine plural) "in the skies"
Acts 7:55 - eis ton ouranon (accusative masculine singular) "into the sky"
1 Corinthians 15:47 - ex ouranou (genitive masculine singular) "out of-[the]-sky"
Hebrews 9:24 - eis auton ton ouranon (acccusative masculine singular) "into itself the sky"
1 Peter 3:22 - eis ouranon (accusative masculine singular) "into [the]-sky"
Revelation 4:1 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Revelation 4:2 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"
Revelation 11:19 - en too ouranoo (dative masculine singular) "in the sky"

Now, let's look at the verses with these changes:

Matthew 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in the skies.

Matthew 5:34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither in the sky; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in [the]-skies: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is of-the-sky is perfect.

Matthew 6:1  Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in the skies.

Matthew 6:9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in the skies, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in [the]-sky, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Matthew 7:11  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in the skies give good things to them that ask him?

Mark 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in the skies may forgive you your trespasses.

Mark 11:30  The baptism of John, was it out of-[the]-sky, or of men? answer me.

Luke 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in the skies.

Luke 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in the skies, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in [the]-sky, so in earth.

Acts 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into the sky, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

1 Corinthians 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of-[the]-sky.

Hebrews 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into the sky itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into [the]-sky, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in the sky: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in the sky, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in the sky, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Isn't it interesting that, out of all these verses you've chosen, not a one of these use the word "epouranios?"

These verses are not suggesting where God lives, i.e., where He may be found; it's where one turns his or her head to face an omnipresent God!

Most of the authors of the Bible DIDN'T call it "heaven,  We don't speak Greek here in the US. Of course if we read a German bible there would be another word, and if a Chinese translation it would be yet another word.  The point is, there is a word in any language for where God dwells.

GOD IS NOT LIMITED! He is "omnipresent," present everywhere!   Think about this: is God the FAther "everywhere?" No, He is always on His throne in heaven. Many people have SEEN Him there. It is the Holy Spirit that makes God "omnipresent." It is the Holy Spirit that is everywhere at the same time.  And where is JEsus? We have over a dozen verses telling us He is at the right hand of the Father. And where is that? On the thone, in the throne room of heaven. Again, many people have been in that throne room and came back to tell us. Isaiah was there, and so was Ezekiel.

So, where is God? He is in "heaven"; He's in the sky!  No, God the FAther sits on His throne in the throne room of heaven, a PLANET far away from earth or from our solar system. Jesus is at His right hand on the same planet in the same throne room.  The Holy Spirit is everywhere.  You are trying to make something that is very simple into something complicated. '

If you wish to believe that God dwells "in the sky" perhaps floating on a cloud, be my guest! You are free to believe it!

Rev. 4:

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in the sky: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, [to the sky?] and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in the sky, and one sat on the throne [in the sky.].

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne [in the sky], in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne [in the sky] were four and twenty seats [setting on clouds?] : and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne [in the sky]  proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

⁶ And before the throne [in the sky]  there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Again, you can believe this if you wish. I choose to believe heaven is a real place and a planet just like earth is a planet. People whom God has taken to visit have seen it as a planet as they approached it.  After all, it has a river! Or is the river a river of clouds? I think not. There are gold streets: are they floating on nothing?

 

I looked up "heaven," not "heavenly." If I had looked up "heavenly" I would have found verses with the Greek word  "epouranios."  

We all know that God dwells IN US, but God's throne with the FAther seated on it is certainly NOT inside me! It is the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Since you don't believe in the place we all call Heaven, where God lives, and where Jesus went to build us mansions, it seems right that you will be left behind when Jesus comes to take us to those homes. I hope your belief system works out for you.

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sure, but the word "ana" meaning "up" is NOT in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4! Many "graves" are actually tombs or crypts. When one is raised from the dead in one of those structures, one is NOT "down coming up!" Therefore, not everyone will be "moving in an UPward direction."

However, now your quote from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 DOES contain "ana" as part of the word "anasteesontai" translated as "will rise" in verse 16. The word literally means "shall stand up." But, when we get to verse 17, the word "harpageesometha," translated as "shall be caught up," does NOT contain "ana!" It literally means "shall be seized together."

Now, while "clouds" and "air" are frequently found "UP" from a person standing upon the earth, there's ABSOLUTELY NO indication within these verses that we will go any higher! It's an AIR transport! It's a form of "mass transit system" provided by the messengers ("aggeloi" or "angles") to get us from one side of the earth to the other, to get us from wherever we may be on the surface of the earth to where the Messiah will be, not to get us to some place beyond the "heaven of stars!"

You raise a good point: "where the Messiah will be." Where WILL He be during the 70th week? Of course IN HEAVEN. And that is where the Bride will spend the 7 years. Look, if you wish to go to Israel rather than where God our Father dwells, I think Jesus can work that out.  God certainly won't force someone into heaven if they don't want to go.  I hope that works out for you. The only verse I can think of is that you will be overcome.

It is GOOD to know the Greek, but it is better to know the intent of the Author in a verse.

Edited October 13, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So...was Paul caught UP or was he caught DOWN? I say UP UP UP into the 3rd heaven where God lives.

Do you not understand that the city of New Jerusalem in Revelation is now on planet heaven, but when the time comes will MOVE to planet earth - a NEW planet? It is the same city! Now it is on planet heaven where God lives. I say "planet" because many people who have seen it said it was a planet, and looked much like earth as they approached it from a great distance.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Oh, brother! Paul was "SNATCHED AWAY" NOT "UP!" And, I can tell that you didn't even READ what Peter said! HE said,

1st heaven (and earth) = before the Flood
2nd heaven (and earth) = after the Flood and before the Fire
3rd heaven (and earth) = after the Fire.

THERE'S your "third heaven!" Paul saw a VISION of the FUTURE! Paul even started this passage with...

2 Corinthians 12:1 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

Paul was a PROPHET of God in the same way that John was!

And, you can drop the "planet heaven" nonsense. I really don't CARE what others said they have seen while in a trance or coming back from some near death experience! Look up hypoxia and what the effects of oxygen deprivation are! A person will HALLUCINATE under such conditions, and whatever they believe will express itself in some "vision!"

They were NOT "dead" and "came back from the dead" because we are told in Scripture that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment!" (Hebrews 9:27, KJV.)

We're also WARNED:

1 John 4:1 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

HaSatan is a LIAR and the FATHER of all lies! He's going to do his dead level best to distract people from the truth! STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES and LEARN THE DETAILS ABOUT THOSE SCRIPTURES!

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Oh, brother! Paul was "SNATCHED AWAY" NOT "UP!" And, I can tell that you didn't even READ what Peter said! HE said,

1st heaven (and earth) = before the Flood
2nd heaven (and earth) = after the Flood and before the Fire
3rd heaven (and earth) = after the Fire.

THERE'S your "third heaven!" Paul saw a VISION of the FUTURE! Paul even started this passage with...

2 Corinthians 12:1 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

Paul was a PROPHET of God in the same way that John was!

And, you can drop the "planet heaven" nonsense. I really don't CARE what others said they have seen while in a trance or coming back from some near death experience! Look up hypoxia and what the effects of oxygen deprivation are! A person will HALLUCINATE under such conditions, and whatever they believe will express itself in some "vision!"

They were NOT "dead" and "came back from the dead" because we are told in Scripture that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment!" (Hebrews 9:27, KJV.)

We're also WARNED:

1 John 4:1 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

HaSatan is a LIAR and the FATHER of all lies! He's going to do his dead level best to distract people from the truth! STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES and LEARN THE DETAILS ABOUT THOSE SCRIPTURES!

That is your theory about Paul, it is certainly not mine.

It is OK if you don't believe the many many people whom God has taken to see both heaven and hell. God has done it for your benefit, but if you ignore all these, that is up to you.

Did Lazarus die? Certainly He did. And Jesus raised him from the dead. In other words, there are EXCEPTIONS to The rule of dying once. Several people in the bible were raised from the dead.

Look, if you wish to float on a cloud, that is between you and God. The bride is going to be caught up and escorted to the mansions Jesus has built for them. I wonder, with your beliefs, if He has built one for you?

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is not a difficult concept: I live on 41st street. Walmart is on 71st street. If I wish to leave my home and go to Walmart, I must change locations: I LEAVE 41st street and head in the direction of 71st street - in my city that would be heading south.

In the same way, Jesus is currently on planet heaven, at the right hand of the Father on the throne. He has been there 2000 years preparing HOMES for us. When the Father tells Him it is time, He will LEAVE heaven and head for planet earth as seen in 1 Thes. 4: as He leaves He brings with Him the Spirits of those saints who have passed.  He will then raise the dead in Christ, then change those who are alive and in Christ, and toGETHER we are escorted back to heaven where He prepared the homes for us.

Shalom, iamlamad.

(Again, drop the "planet heaven" garbage. While I do agree with you that the New Jerusalem is in space currently under construction, the size and complexity of making solid crystal latices from which the walls and the foundations can be made would best be done in open space without the influence of gravity, not on some planet!)

You say that Yeshua` will bring "with Him the Spirits of those saints who have passed." Actually, I think the passage says that "He will raise the saints who have passed and bring them (and us) with Him."

However, the real question is WHY are we "escorted back to heaven where He prepared the homes for us?" And, don't say it's in John 14:1-3! That's not what He said there! What He said was,...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This says NOTHING about "escorting us back to heaven!" The ONLY thing He said is that they wouldn't be separated from Him after He receives them to Himself!

We don't go to the New Jerusalem; the New Jerusalem comes to US!

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (the surface not the entire planet); and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." 

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

7 years pass on earth: 7 trumpets sound, 7 vials are poured out. Jesus holds His marriage and supper in heaven.

Then, Jesus gathers the armies of heaven, all on white horses - one "army" being the church and bride of Christ - and then we leave planet heaven and descend to earth. I say "descend" for if these armies are visible approaching earth, people would look UP to see them.

Perhaps some members of the church will have swords and will join in the battle of Armageddon. It is not written.  This is NOT "excessive;" it is what the bible tells us. He is coming TWICE more: first FOR us, then later WITH us.

Nope. This is NOT what the Bible tells us. This is what a THEOLOGICAL VIEWPOINT teaches.

Half of the 70th Seven was completed in the First Advent of Yeshua` the Messiah and the second half will be completed after the Second Advent of Yeshua` the Messiah. BOTH halves have to do with an offer of the Kingdom to Israel, and the second half can't occur until the children of Israel have been re-introduced to the Messiah.

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Paul's gospel IS NOT Jesus' Gospel. Jesus' gospel was that HE was the Messiah: if people would BELIEVE in Him as the Messiah, they would be saved. The sermon on the mount is a great example of the gospel of the Kingdom. It was pointed at the JEWS. Jesus came only to the Jews. And of course part of Jesus' gospel is that there is a PHYSICAL kingdom coming.  There was no talk of His shed blood until the end, just before he died. Sorry, out of time.

Yeah, I'm out of time, too. It's almost 1:00 a.m. here on the east coast, but this is important to me.

That's not true, btw. There was INDEED "talk of His shed blood" way sooner than you think!

Consider Simeon's words:

Luke 2:25-35 (KJV)

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ (YHWH'S Messiah). 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother,

"Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

It was always one of the choices that the Jews could have made, but it GRADUALLY became clear that Yeshua` was to be rejected and crucified.

Even early into His "ministry," John the Baptist sent to Him and asked Him,

Matthew 11:2-15 (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him,

"Art thou he that should come (the Victorious and Reigning Messiah), or do we look for another (recognizing that Yeshua` would be the Suffering and Dying Messiah)?"

4 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John,

"What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10 For this is he, of whom it is written,
'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.'

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Luke 7:18-30 (KJV)

18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. 19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying,

"Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?"

20 When the men were come unto him, they said,

"John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying,
'Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?'"

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them,

"Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John,

"What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

27 This is he, of whom it is written,
'Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.'

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 

29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

There was no "lapse of faith" as you might hear some teach about John the Baptist. He recognized that there were two sets of prophecies regarding the Messiah - Maashiyach ben Yosef (the Messiah son of Joseph [as in Genesis], the Suffering and Dying Messiah) and Maashiyach ben Daviyd (the Messiah son of David, the Victorious and Reigning Messiah). What He didn't know was whether there would be the ONE Messiah fulfilling both roles or TWO different Messiahs. So, he asked.