Church sans Tribulation (Reposted and reedited from 2013 for new viewers)

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

In my response to the OP, I posted the passage from Revelation 13 in response to the assertion that the great tribulation is about God's wrath, meaning that the church would be removed because the fight is not with them.  Revelation 13 says exactly the opposite, that the great tribulation is about the enemy persecuting the followers of Christ, precisely why the OP suggests the church would be removed.

The response I got was to suggest that I misunderstand what Revelation 13 says.  You agreed with it, so that is why you received the response I gave inquiring about it.  If I am misunderstanding Revelation 13, then it would seem someone who disagrees should explain why that is.

I didn't agree either way in terms of the meaning of Rev. 13.

 

That's why we're having this discussion isn't it?  Because I was told that these commentators couldn't possibly be in error?  If you think I believe I have all the answers, let me save you the suspense, I don't.  I already know that.  You're making assumptions about me that are way off base.

I wasn't aiming my comments at you personally, only making points for general consumption. My points stand on their own whether you even exist or not.

God bless

Yup--a discussion and I added some thoughts, just as you did.

[wingnut-]

39 minutes ago, Alive said:

I didn't agree either way in terms of the meaning of Rev. 13.

 

If you didn't agree, then your response makes no sense.

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Well said---I have thought a time or two years ago, that I had some understanding of the scriptures mentioned--nowadays, that is not the case.

 

God bless

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

If you didn't agree, then your response makes no sense.

 

 

God bless

C'mon wingnut...seriously? There was a lot more in that post to agree to than that point.

If I have an opinion as to the meaning of things relating to the end times, I will state it clearly. I have indicated that I simply don't know and make no attempt to communicate otherwise. You may notice that my responses on the forum have been almost totally within the realm of personal experience, the depth of God's work 'in Christ' and the realm of fundamental 'principles' taught in scripture and born out by common experience of the saints that can be applied to controversies of doctrine.

There are some few things that the Lord has gone out of His way to make sure I understand--for His purposes, but end time stuff is not among them.

 

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, Alive said:

C'mon wingnut...seriously? There was a lot more in that post to agree to than that point.

 

Brother, I'm not trying to be contentious here, but yeah, seriously.  The post you responded to was in reply to my post which was maybe a dozen words of mine, and 90% scripture from Revelation 13.  That is precisely what the OP responded to, and you responded with the quote I just displayed again.

If you weren't interested in discussing what I posted then I am at a loss as to why you engaged me in conversation to begin with, or what scripture you are referring to in your reply.  That's the only scripture posted in the thread at that point.

 

19 minutes ago, Alive said:

There are some few things that the Lord has gone out of His way to make sure I understand--for His purposes, but end time stuff is not among them.

 

I understand that perfectly, it goes back to my reference to you earlier in regards to the body.  A body is made up of many different parts, a hand cannot be a foot, a mouth cannot be an ear, etc.  Since end time stuff is not your thing, do you suppose it is possible God has others to fill that role?  And if your answer is yes, do you imagine He would want it shared with the other parts of the body so that they can do what I have been saying from the start here, and test it themselves against scripture?

 

God bless

[Alive]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Brother, I'm not trying to be contentious here, but yeah, seriously.  The post you responded to was in reply to my post which was maybe a dozen words of mine, and 90% scripture from Revelation 13.  That is precisely what the OP responded to, and you responded with the quote I just displayed again.

If you weren't interested in discussing what I posted then I am at a loss as to why you engaged me in conversation to begin with, or what scripture you are referring to in your reply.  That's the only scripture posted in the thread at that point.

 

 

I understand that perfectly, it goes back to my reference to you earlier in regards to the body.  A body is made up of many different parts, a hand cannot be a foot, a mouth cannot be an ear, etc.  Since end time stuff is not your thing, do you suppose it is possible God has others to fill that role?  And if your answer is yes, do you imagine He would want it shared with the other parts of the body so that they can do what I have been saying from the start here, and test it themselves against scripture?

 

God bless

Maybe we can clear this up, wing.

Are you referring to my response in the screenshot below?

If so--I was responding to his assertion of the difficulty of being sure of the meanings in 'these scriptures' meaning those that deal with the end such as Daniel, Joel, Zech and Revelation. I was not, just as I declared earlier, responding specifically to you pasting in Rev. 13.

I explained my thoughts further along these lines in the following screenshot.

Cut and pasted..

I understand that perfectly, it goes back to my reference to you earlier in regards to the body.  A body is made up of many different parts, a hand cannot be a foot, a mouth cannot be an ear, etc.  Since end time stuff is not your thing, do you suppose it is possible God has others to fill that role?  And if your answer is yes, do you imagine He would want it shared with the other parts of the body so that they can do what I have been saying from the start here, and test it themselves against scripture?

 

God bless

Yes--I agree of course and said as much above. Yes--different members by necessity have different functions at different times as God will in the Church.

If God wants a thing shared then there will be an anointing that has the power of the Holy Spirit behind it and it will surely perform what He intends.

There are scriptures that tell us these things with clarity. 'Teaching' is no small thing within the context of the Church.

Just one more point if you will bear with me. 

You mentioned above that you understand that relying on another man's understanding leads to cults. Of course this happens, but you say you share your understanding in hopes that folks will search and see that it is so. You are teaching. Folks may or may not receive your teaching and they may even form a 'cult' as a result.

The above is just something to consider. I am not in any way declaring one way or the other. I deal in principles, as I have been taught and leave it to the Holy Spirit to turn on the light or create a thirst.

Anyway---as to Rev. 13 and the meaning that you infer. I was not and am not giving an opinion on it.

BTW--did I engage you or did you engage me? I think I responded to the other guy.

Also--I have bee reading these end time threads because I sincerely wish to know what the saints are thinking about--especially regarding current events.

 

I hope this helps.

 

edited in to add.

Wing---your bible commentary may be the future commentary just the same as those many sons before you have commented and you seem to reject to some extent.

:-)

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Alive

[OneLight]

10 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

I am one that is not convinced as to the Biblical truth of the "Rapture." For one thing Revelation 13: 7-10 and specifically in Revelation 13:7 where it says " He was also permitted to wage war against the saints (God’s people) and to overcome them" ; this says to me the Saints must still be on earth perhaps sealed much as Job was by God. I find the below sermon/teaching most informative as it covers all the different aspects but is too long to be posted on the forum.

 

End Of The Age The Truth About the Rapture Passion For Truth Ministries 

Put the above in the Youtube search line and you will find a 1 hour and thirty two minute teaching on this subject covering both pro and con aspect as well as pre, mid, and post trib aspects. It is well worth viewing.

 

The trouble with the video you present, and that of many people who discuss the timing of the rapture, is that they only hit three of the many views of such a timing.  They leave out pre-wrath, partial and amillennial beliefs,as if they don't exist or matter.

Though I am not a pre-tribber, I will say that they see those in Revelation 13:7 as being believers who became believers during the tribulation, after the church was raptured.

[wingnut-]

26 minutes ago, Alive said:

Are you referring to my response in the screenshot below?

 

I was.

 

26 minutes ago, Alive said:

If so--I was responding to his assertion of the difficulty of being sure of the meanings in 'these scriptures' meaning those that deal with the end such as Daniel, Joel, Zech and Revelation. I was not, just as I declared earlier, responding specifically to you pasting in Rev. 13.

 

I guess this is where the misunderstanding began, because I had only posted from Revelation, and wordsword only responded to Revelation.  Not that I'm not willing to discuss any of the books you mentioned, but to that point no one was.

 

31 minutes ago, Alive said:

You mentioned above that you understand that relying on another man's understanding leads to cults. Of course this happens, but you say you share your understanding in hopes that folks will search and see that it is so.

 

Big difference, I am encouraging people to seek the truth for themselves, as God instructs us.  I reject the notion that any follower of Christ has more access to the truth than another, that we should simply swallow whatever pill someone else hands us.  Any teacher that comes and claims they are the only ones with knowledge should be disregarded, and anyone that claims someone they follow has all the knowledge should be disregarded.

 

37 minutes ago, Alive said:

You are teaching.

 

No, actually what I did was called refuting.  When something contradicts what God says, I tend to point that error out.

 

45 minutes ago, Alive said:

Folks may or may not receive your teaching

 

I don't want anyone to receive anything of mine, which is probably why I generally avoid saying much and let scripture do the talking.  According to the post you gave a thumbs up to, we should not accept scripture "at face value".  I wonder then how anyone can determine anything.  If I can't accept Jesus saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" at face value, where does that leave me, or you?

Really what that is code for is, let me twist everything into a knot, present my own truth, and you take it.  That is why it takes someone defending pre-trib two pages to answer a yes or no question, or to explain away something that is clearly written.  I will continue to tell people not to swallow that pill, because we do not serve a God of confusion.

False teaching is a serious problem in the church today, and many come away disheartened with gathering together, blaming the teachers they chose to follow.  In truth, it is their own doing, if one wants to have a relationship with God then they are going to have to make some effort and read the very words He arranged for us to live by.  If we don't know them, it is by choice.

So to put it plainly, don't receive what I say, receive what the Spirit says.

 

56 minutes ago, Alive said:

BTW--did I engage you or did you engage me?

 

You engaged me, you included the very post in which you did with your last snapshot.  My general rule of thumb when I post is to address the OP, it is their thread after all.  When someone else chooses to engage me in discussion I will indulge them as long as it doesn't stray too far from the topic.

 

59 minutes ago, Alive said:

Wing---your bible commentary may be the future commentary just the same as those many sons before you have commented and you seem to reject to some extent.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath, doesn't interest me in the least.

 

God bless

[Alive]

I am sorry that we are not communicating, wing. This all has become convoluted.

I will respond to your post with scripture...and a wee question.

1Cor. 12:28 And God has ^1aappointed in ^bthe church, first ^capostles, second ^dprophets, third ^eteachers,

1John 2:27 As for you, the ^aanointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing ^bteaches you about all things,

It's is very clear that the Holy Spirit through Paul taught that God provides 'teachers' for the Church. Would God do so if it wasn't required.

Does John contradict Paul?

With these things in view--I have tried to understand some of your positions.

BTW--I hope you don't think that I implied that anyone has 'all the knowledge'. That would be very silly.

 

I am interested to hear what the Lord has taught you regarding end time prophecy.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Tampered With said:

Did you watch the longer video?

I am quite aware of those that become believers during the Tribulation however that does not make the Rapture scriptural. I believe Jesus Comes Back which brings the Tribulation to an end and He establishes His Kingdom. I just believe those that are all in to this pre-tribulation rapture are in for a huge let down and possibly mass falling away as a result when it does not come to pass as they expect. Scripture does not spell it out so believers better be prepared and not put all their eggs in just one basket. There have been many who have made predictions that were sure they were Biblically Sound only to be proven wrong. 

At the moment I don't have 1 1/2 hours to sit through a video, but will try to get to it very soon.

When I speak of what others have told me that this is what they believe, I pass it along as information only, not that I accept their theology.  Like those who will be saved in the tribulation are different than the believers who were raptured, so also are those who will fall away are people after the rapture and before the second coming of Jesus, not the rapture. 

[OneLight]

3 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

That is how I view the Rapture, as I heard it talked about and debated back over 40 years ago more as a theory than as an actual fact as there are and were differing schools of thought. many people have very differing Theology as there are so many denominations and they can not all be correct in their interpretations. The fact that the Rapture Theology is a 19th century invention is a concern to not only me.  

I understand how it can be a concern, but, like you, many years of considering the rapture has brought me to believe that the first believers thought, more then likely, that they will be caught up within their lifetime, so they didn't consider it much of a topic to debate.  After that, the RCC closed the bible to only the priests and above where the common people were told they cold not understand scripture so just sit back, listen and learn.  Once the bible was put to press, there were debates as to what all it is saying and that making disciples should be their focus, until someone thought about when will the being caught up happen, sometime in the early 1800's.  Maybe their focus was elsewhere and/or they just didn't understand the idea of being snatched away?  Who know?  I sure don't have a complete understanding of why it took so long to consider.