Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

If you notice, the only time the moon appears red color, is during a lunar eclipse. The only time the sun appears black as sackcloth is during a solar eclipse. The signs for the Day of the Lord come before the 70th week even begins, and they are totally different signs. How would ANYONE know if the moon appeared blood red? They would have to SEE it. How would anyone know the sun appeared as dark as sackcloth? They would have to SEE it.

You are using the natural to explain the supernatural. As a Pentecostal I am surprised you fall for this.  When darkness was upon the earth at the crucifixion, was this an eclipse? No way it could have been, as this was during the full moon of Passover and eclipses cannot happen during a full moon. So this was a supernatural darkening of the Sun. If you were on the other side of the planet, the moon would not give its light.

No offense, But you are so set in your own ways, you are incapable of learning, which is why the debate here is useless. We have been over this point before, and you will never arrive at the truth because you are incapable of interacting with others. Instead you only wish to dictate your beliefs on others. 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, dhchristian said:

You are using the natural to explain the supernatural. As a Pentecostal I am surprised you fall for this.  When darkness was upon the earth at the crucifixion, was this an eclipse? No way it could have been, as this was during the full moon of Passover and eclipses cannot happen during a full moon. So this was a supernatural darkening of the Sun. If you were on the other side of the planet, the moon would not give its light.

No offense, But you are so set in your own ways, you are incapable of learning, which is why the debate here is useless. We have been over this point before, and you will never arrive at the truth because you are incapable of interacting with others. Instead you only wish to dictate your beliefs on others.

I am not saying this is the ONLY WAY God could make the sun dark and the moon appear red. I am only saying that to know if the moon is red, one would have to SEE IT. But if the moon is darkened, no sunlight is being reflected and the moon is simply not visible. These are two different signs for two different purposes and will be seen (or not seen) over 7 years apart. 

Sorry, my friend, but this time it is you that is in error, not understanding any kind of Chronology.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I am reminded of the wisdom of my bible college professor: "when forming end times doctrine, always form that doctrine from the most complete treatise in the bible; then fill in missing pieces from the more brief treatises."  I think he was very wise. WE find in Revelation the most complete treatise of End times. Jesus gave us only the briefest of outlines.  Up to verse 14 Jesus was talking about church age, but mentions "the end" in verse 14. Then, He jumped completely over the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week and landed on the midpoint of the week: the abomination that divides the week.

I Was always taught that the Words in red letters were the most important ones in scripture, and they hold preeminence over all the rest for they are the direct Words of the Word of God. Do You really think John wrote revelation without recalling Jesus own words on the mount of Olives? Jesus showed John details which go with the framework which he gave when he was alive and with them on the earth.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dhchristian.

No, it doesn't! Where did you get all that in the verse we're talking about?!

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Where do you see ANYTHING about the "Abomination of desolation" or the "rule of the Antichrist" in that verse?! That's TOTAL NONSENSE!

Good! Because that is NOT what I'm saying at all!

Nope. You're misunderstanding Matthew 24:22. Yeshua` was saying that the DAYS OF TRIBULATION within this 2,000-year period will be shortened! He is NOT saying that the period will be shortened! And, what gives you or anybody the proof that the "tribulation period" is either "7 years" or "3.5 years?"

There is MUCH proof that there is a period of time coming that will be 3.5 years; given in days, months and times.  Much of the church world (in error) call this period "the great tribulation."  Jesus said there would be "those days" of GT during this 3.5 year period of time.  But He also said He would shorten those days. In other words, there is not going to be 1260 days of GT, because He will shorten the time.  He will do this by the vials and associated plagues poured out in the last half of the week. The time frame of the 70th week is set in concrete so to say: it is written in His word and is not going to change. DH has it wrong also.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I am not saying this is the ONLY WAY God could make the sun dark and the moon appear red. I am only saying that to know if the moon is red, one would have to SEE IT. But if the moon is darkened, no sunlight is being reflected and the moon is simply not visible. These are two different signs for two different purposes and will be seen (or not seen) over 7 years apart. 

Sorry, my friend, but this time it is you that is in error, not understanding any kind of Chronology.

You are using the natural to negate what HE has shown me. This is as Old as Jannes and Jambres, who used their magic to duplicate what Moses did, and as common as modern science trying to say that the parting of the red sea was caused by receding of waters before a tsunami, Or the flood of Noah being a regional flood. We do not know what causes the darkening of the moon, or how it will transpire so we cannot tell if the reddening of the moon is just part of the process to becoming blackened.  Maybe it is the opening of the bottomless pit, and the smoke ascending, and the Locusts coming from there, which means there will be a process to this darkening.... And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (9:2-3)

Notice here we see a process, first the smoke, and then the locusts. could this tie into the sixth seal?    

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Was always taught that the Words in red letters were the most important ones in scripture, and they hold preeminence over all the rest for they are the direct Words of the Word of God. Do You really think John wrote revelation without recalling Jesus own words on the mount of Olives? Jesus showed John details which go with the framework which he gave when he was alive and with them on the earth.

The words Paul wrote are perhaps MORE important to us in the Gentile church age, for they are written to us and for us, while Jesus, for the most part, was talking to Jews about Jews.

Anyway, Jesus was certainly not going to disagree with what He told John,  nor would He show John things disagreeing with what HE said.  I wonder, can you admit error?

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, dhchristian said:

You are using the natural to negate what HE has shown me. This is as Old as Jannes and Jambres, who used their magic to duplicate what Moses did, and as common as modern science trying to say that the parting of the red sea was caused by receding of waters before a tsunami, Or the flood of Noah being a regional flood. We do not know what causes the darkening of the moon, or how it will transpire so we cannot tell if the reddening of the moon is just part of the process to becoming blackened.  Maybe it is the opening of the bottomless pit, and the smoke ascending, and the Locusts coming from there, which means there will be a process to this darkening.... And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (9:2-3)

Notice here we see a process, first the smoke, and then the locusts. could this tie into the sixth seal?    

One thing is certain: Jesus is not going to show someone one thing, then show someone else something in opposition. Neither will He show anyone something that disagrees with the written word. For example, He showed me that the exact midpoint of the week is at the 7th trumpet. You disagree. But there is bible proof it is truth.
No, the 5th trumpet is over and done with: FINISHED by the time of the 6th trumpet. And ALL seals are opened before any of the trumpets are sounded. You cannot rearrange!

Edited November 11, 2019 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I wonder, can you admit error?

I Have many times. On this site as well. I told you of the correction I received from the preterists some time back, which led to this word of Knowledge. I Used to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The Lord corrects me daily as he disciplines me as a son. He also shows me things from the Word of God daily, the Word of God is alive. To deny these things is to deny Him. I cannot do that. I have known these things for some time now, but only now am being able to explain and defend them. Like I said before, to you, that is how I know these things are from Him, they are bigger than my understanding to grasp them and explain them properly. It takes months, sometimes years to fully understand what he shows me in days through the Holy Ghost and the Word of God. When He first showed me these things I could only explain them in terms of analogy, an artwork being painted by a master artist, Now he is showing me how to triangulate to explain these things to others who will hear. 

I Am quite surprised, you as a Pentecostal do not understand this. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

One thing is certain: Jesus is not going to show someone one thing, then show someone else something in opposition. Neither will He show anyone something that disagrees with the written word. For example, He showed me that the exact midpoint of the week is at the 7th trumpet. You disagree. But there is bible proof it is truth.
No, the 5th trumpet is over and done with: FINISHED by the time of the 6th trumpet. And ALL seals are opened before any of the trumpets are sounded. You cannot rearrange!

No One person receives the entirety of the counsel of God. I Have neither negated nor confirmed the seventh trumpet being the midpoint of the final week. You may be right on this, But you are confusing me with others re: negation of this. This actually works in my timeline, if the time of the seventh trump is an extended period of time. I cannot confirm nor deny this yet. Meaning the day of the LORD is an extended period of time, such as the Flood was. Interaction refines what each of us is given, to make a picture of the whole come to light. Let's say seven people are given a piece of a jigsaw puzzle. Well until they come together, they will never see the whole picture the puzzle makes. They can observe the piece they have, and theorize as to what it means, But until they take their piece with the other people with their pieces and they begin to try and fit the pieces together, all they are doing is guessing as to what the rest of the puzzle looks like. When those guesses become your doctrine is when you will fall into error, because you have negated pieces others were given. That is where you stand right now. Your guesses are your doctrine, and you are unable to learn from others what the LORD has given them.

 

[dhchristian]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

One thing is certain: Jesus is not going to show someone one thing, then show someone else something in opposition. Neither will He show anyone something that disagrees with the written word. For example, He showed me that the exact midpoint of the week is at the 7th trumpet. You disagree. But there is bible proof it is truth.
No, the 5th trumpet is over and done with: FINISHED by the time of the 6th trumpet. And ALL seals are opened before any of the trumpets are sounded. You cannot rearrange!

Here in is your character flaw. Do you see how you are negating by saying "you cannot rearrange", yet you do so yourself by placing parenthesis around passages. Same darn thing occurs when you use parenthesis, you rearrange revelation. I Never negated your parenthesis, I was shown a framework that allows for rearranging in a logical and chronological way that is not linear, but three dimensional. Why was I shown this? Because as someone who design and builds things I am able to grasp images on two dimensional drawings in three dimensions. Think of a floor plan of a house. Most people who see one can visualize rooms and doors in them, But they cannot visualize the whole house, and the roof design from the floor plan, let alone vaults in the ceilings, window heights, architectural details, etc. You need another drawing of the house, such as elevations to show you these things. so the elevation drawing is still the same house from a different perspective. Now if You have a front elevation you also need a back elevation and the two sides to get all the exterior details. All still drawings of the same house. Then you have electrical and mechanical plans sometimes is a reflected ceiling plan so it is kind of a reverse image, which shows the placement of lighting and other ceiling features. Well, Revelation is the same way, and there is no need to guess where to throw parenthesis around passages. The chronology is not just the floor plan, But all of the drawing working together then the whole house comes together. Somany eschatology teachers only have on drawing and the rest is a guess. 

What I am trying to show you is that framework. This triangulation being the very basic part of it that locks it all together. Think of the rapture as one of those "elevation" drawings, well there are others that are like this elevation but from a different perspective, all the same house, and all showing the "vertical" details of how we go up, and how others that are diverse from "we" go up.