2 TIMOTHY 3:10 WHERE DOES THE CHURCH FIND DOCTRINE

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Sorry again--I don't mean to be argumentative, but this is not even close to being convincing. I have in my Accordance Software most every translation as well as original texts, all the Church Fathers (so called), etc. etc. etc.--

I repeat--Jesus Himself told us the angels don't have babies.

Probably not anymore since the sins of the watchers some 2-3000 years before. Study it and find out brother.

[Justin Adams]

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Sorry again--I don't mean to be argumentative, but this is not even close to being convincing. I have in my Accordance Software most every translation as well as original texts, all the Church Fathers (so called), etc. etc. etc.--

I repeat--Jesus Himself told us the angels don't have babies.

Angels in heaven may not, however, the watchers mated with human females and did have babies.

[Alive]

Just now, Justin Adams said:

Angels in heaven may not, however, the watchers mated with human females and did have babies.

I hear you say this, but where are we told in scripture about these 'watchers'. It certainly isn't in Gen 6.

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, Alive said:

I hear you say this, but where are we told in scripture about these 'watchers'. It certainly isn't in Gen 6.

Heiser, a scholar-in-residence at the Faithlife Corporation and the author of "The Unseen Realm" and "Supernatural," told The Church Boys podcast that he believes that those who embrace the "fallen angels" paradigm have it all wrong, proposing, instead, that demons are actually the spirits of the Nephilim who are briefly mentioned in the Old Testament.

"It might surprise a lot of people who are familiar with the Bible ... to know that the Bible never offers a point-blank explanation for where demons come from," he said. "A lot of what we think about that is really filtered through church tradition."

Listen to Heiser's theory on demons below:

Heiser said that the closest place that one comes to demons being fallen angels can be found in Revelation, the final book of the Bible.

"Revelation 12 ... talks about a war in heaven and angels being cast out," Heiser said. "But if you actually read Revelation 12, that discussion ... is associated with the first coming of Jesus ... demons were around a long time before that."

While he embraces the notion that it is possible for people — mainly occultists, Satanists and practicing polytheists who solicit evil forces — to become possessed, he believes that the spiritual forces behind it simply aren't angelic in nature.

"What the New Testament refers to as demons, Jewish texts in between the Old and New Testaments actually have a very clear answer for this — and that is demons are the disembodied spirits of the dead Nephilim from Genesis 6:1-4," Heiser said. "The dead giants of the pre-flood era and the post-flood era as well."

Nephilim are mentioned twice in the Bible in the aforementioned Genesis 6 chapter as well as in Numbers 13. Here are the specific verses:

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. (Genesis 6:4)

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.” (Numbers 13:33)

Overall, there's not a lot written about the Nephilim in the biblical text and Heiser admits that it "sounds kind of crazy," but he further explained why he believe that these spirits that were once in bodily form are once again seeking human hosts to reside in.

Heiser said that Jewish texts fill in the blanks, leading him to believe that the Nephilim are actually the demonic forces that some believe hold the power to terrorize and possess humans.

As for Christians who might reject the Nephilim theory or the notion of demons more generally, Heiser said that he believes that evangelicals, in particular, are sometimes "selectively supernatural."

"I like to ask Christians, 'Well, what's so normal about the virgin birth? What's so normal about the trinity?" he said.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/10/30/bible-scholar-explains-why-everything-many-christians-have-been-taught-about-demons-is-completely-wrong

Of course 'Got questions' takes the traditional and incorrect view along with most of the churches.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

OK--let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct. What is the point and where is the edification.

Full-disclosure: I am personally aware of the reality of demonic activity. The Lord Himself taught me.

[Justin Adams]

Understanding the Divine Council and the way God works is most important. Understanding the enemy is also important. Understanding WHERE human depravity came from is very important. It has all been falsely laid at the feet of Adam. Big mistake. Understanding principalities and powers and how they hold sway over the nations is very necessary. Know your enemy and sit down like Yeshua said and count the cost...

Edited February 16, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

Well--the Watchers that I find in scripture are those angels that God has assigned over nations.

This much is clear...I don't see the value in the rest. How has this 'knowledge' helped you?

Have you yourself encountered demon possession? If so, did this 'knowledge' help you?

[Justin Adams]

THE REVERSAL OF EVIL 
https://blog.israelbiblicalstudies.com/jewish-studies/1-enoch-and-the-reversal-of-the-evil/

We finished  our last post with the thesis, drawn largely from the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, that Second Temple Judaism saw in Genesis 6:1-4, not only the story of a supernatural rebellion, but one of the central passages in biblical theology and in understanding God’s plan in history: “Yes, the entrance of sin into God’s good world occurred in Eden, but the unanimous testimony of Second Temple Judaism is that the Watchers are to blame for the proliferation of evil on the earth.”[1] Since the New Testament writers belonged to Second Temple Judaism, this understanding of the Watchers being responsible for the spread of evil on earth, and the theme of reversing the effects of this evil, had to be part of their theology. “Consequently, it should be no surprise that the sin of the Watchers was in the back of their minds as they wrote about what the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth must, did, and would reverse at His coming and return.”[2] The New Testament writers knew that Jesus’ mission was the reversal of evil – and if they believed that the evil was brought and spread by the Watchers, then Jesus had to reverse what the Watchers did.

Let us try to see the traces of this Second Temple theology in the gospels. We will discover the allusions to the Watchers and their sin and to the evil they brought, and you will be surprised to see that these allusions, once discovered, shed light on some quizzical Scriptures—all of a sudden,  questions that you’ve tried to answer for a long time, will find clear answers.

FOUR WOMEN

And here is the first question – the one that has probably been asked an endless number of times by an endless number of people since the Gospel of Matthew was written: Why are the four women named by Matthew in Jesus’ genealogy, Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba? There are four traditional Biblical matriarchs in Israel:  Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah (we even sing a song about arba imahot  –Four Mothers);  if Matthew decided to include women, and to include four of them, would it not be more logical, to have these four mothers in the genealogy of   the Jewish Messiah?  Why aren’t the matriarchs mentioned at all, while these four women are named explicitly in Jesus’ bloodline?

Let us have a quick look at these women.

Tamar – the story of Tamar is found in Genesis 38.  She is probably a Canaanite woman (although the text doesn’t say so explicitly); she is a widow; after the double tragedy she experienced (the death of her two husbands), it seemed that she would remain childless; however, she disguises herself as a prostitute and deceives Judah, her father-in-law, in order to have a child from him. “When Judah saw her, he thought she was a harlot, because she had covered her face.”[3] From this union, Perez is born, and from him will descend David – and Jesus. Interestingly enough, we find no condemnation of Tamar in the Torah, although it is clear that her desperate deed was not some regular, normative or exemplary action.

Rahab – we find the story of Rahab in the book of Joshua, in chapters 2 and 6. Unlike Tamar, who was disguised as a prostitute, Rahab really was a prostitute. She lives in Jericho and she is certainly a Gentile. The Book of Joshua tells us that “Joshua spared Rahab the harlot, her father’s household, and all that she had. So she dwells in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.”[4]

Ruth (from the book of Ruth) – Like Rahab, Ruth is clearly a Gentile, a Moabite. Her background itself is of interest: for Israel, Moabite women were associated with seduction and idolatry. This association comes from the well-known episode in the wilderness in Numbers 25 when the Israelites became involved with women from Moab and followed them into idolatry.  However, besides her background, Ruth does something that, as in case of Tamar, should have an “improper” feel to later Jewish readers. In Chapter 3, “she went down to the threshing floor … And after Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was cheerful, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of grain; and she came softly, uncovered his feet, and lay down”[5] . “The Hebrew word translated ‘feet’ (regel) is a well-known euphemism for genitalia in the Hebrew Bible…  By uncovering Boaz’s ‘feet’ (genitalia), Ruth is, in effect, offering herself as a wife to Boaz. Given the patriarchal setting of Israelite culture, this was a transgression of the way things were usually done.”[6]

Bathsheba – everyone would know the story of David’s adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of her husband, Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 11:1- 27) – and clearly, as in the previous stories, a sexual transgression is also evident here.

Thus, we can see that all four women in Matthew 1 are connected in some way with illicit sexual relations. The New Testament scholar Amy Richter believes that what she calls the “Enochic Watchers Template” is essential for understanding the women in the genealogy of Jesus: “According to the Enochic Watchers’ Template, evil came into the world when the Watchers transgressed their heavenly boundary to engage in illicit sexual contact with women and teach them illicit arts…. The consequences of the Watchers’ transgression are violence, unrighteousness, evil, idolatry, and disease.”[7] She believes that all four women of the Hebrew Bible named by Matthew in his genealogy of Jesus are connected with the Enochic Watchers’ Template – and therefore they foreshadow the reversal of the Watchers’ transgression that the Messiah would bring.

We can now answer the question why these four women are named by Matthew.  The sin of the Watchers was sexual in its nature, and the consequences of the Watchers’ fall are evident in all the four stories, and this is the main reason for these women to be included in the genealogy of the Messiah   who would bring about the reversal and repair of the consequences of the Watchers’ sin. An essential part of Jewish tradition is a belief that when the Messiah comes, all things will be repaired (even pigs will become kosher)[8]—and if we remember the fall of the Watchers, we can see this belief already reflected in Matthew’s genealogy.

[1][1] Heiser, Michael S. Reversing Hermon: Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ (Kindle Locations 107).

[Alive]

That is an interesting perspective.

I reckon I will just conclude for now that if the Lord thought this important for us in this 'Church Age', He would make it clear.

Perhaps a distraction? I don't know, but I do know that this stuff (not being aware of it) has never been a hindrance to the things that I do know for certain are important..both to understand personally nor in teaching and encouragement of the brethren.

I will keep an open mind.

[Guest Thess]

On 10/27/2019 at 4:07 PM, OneLight said:

Why not just follow Christ Himself?

Because we learn more about the Character of Christ as we read the works of Paul. 18 times Paul asks us to model him; that's incredible. In by modeling Paul, we receive advice, from him, that we do not receive from Christ Himself. We learn more about who and what we are to be from Paul. And in by accepting the teachings of Paul, you are accepting the teachings of Christ. That is why we are ALL to follow Paul and His teachings, not because they are his, but because they were handed to Him by Christ Himself. Paul was taught by God, hence we ought listen to all that he says.