Al Baghdadi.

[angels4u]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I do the same, the only reason I can think of to not accept something literally is when an obvious contradiction occurs.  In those instances there must be a reason for any apparent contradiction.  

 

 

Here is the problem with the idea of a restored Babylon, and in hindsight I really should have begun with this when you first asked what happened to Babylon.  Let's start with what led up to the Babylonian exile, and we can see an obvious dual prophecy in scripture right here.  Jeremiah begins this chapter talking about a very specific time, the first year of King Nebuchadnezzar.  He tells about the warnings to Judah and Jerusalem from God to turn from their wicked ways and be obedient, which they do not do, so then he tells them what  the Lord has in store for them.

 

Jeremiah 25:8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste. 13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.”

 

Ok, so now we have a literal problem.  Jerusalem has not been an everlasting desolation since the Babylonian captivity, the whole land is not a ruin and a waste.  And what happened to Babylon after the seventy years?  Did it become an everlasting waste?  Jeremiah goes on to give us a list from God, of all the nations who are to drink from the cup of wrath.

 

Jeremiah 25:17 So I took the cup from the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to whom the Lord sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people, 20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); 21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media; 26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.

 

Now this is where the prophecy really begins to show the duality of its nature, verse 26 in particular.  Jeremiah was instructed to take this cup to each of these nations, and at the end Babylon itself is to receive the cup.  Are we to believe that Jeremiah literally covered the entire earth and every kingdom on it at that time?  If you look really closely at the list prior to verse 26, what we see are all of the nations that Babylon took possession of during Nebuchadnezzar's reign.  None of them immediately became an everlasting desolation.  But again, what happened to Babylon after the 70 years?

 

Daniel 5:24 “Then from his presence the hand was sent, and this writing was inscribed. 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: Mene, Mene, Tekel, and Parsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the matter: Mene, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; 27 Tekel, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; 28 Peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put around his neck, and a proclamation was made about him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.

30 That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

 

Belshazzar had a party and decided it was a good idea for him and his guests to drink from the cups looted from the Lord's temple.  The hand of God literally appeared and wrote on the wall, declaring the kingdom of Babylon was over, and it happened that very night.  There is no more Babylon from that point as far as a kingdom, the city lingered for awhile, the Parsin part of the writing became half true that very night and was completed when Cyrus later took the city.  Later it was taken by the Greeks, but after the death of Alexander and the wars that ensued it fell into a state of disrepair and eventually was swept away by the sand.  But the point is, God declared the kingdom of Babylon as finished, literally, so it will not be rising again physically.

 

 

But you're still literally changing the term, from mother of harlots, to the mother of all harlotry.  The title is literally, mother of harlots, which Ezekiel tells us that Jerusalem is a harlot, and she has daughters that are also harlots.  He gives us the proverb, "like mother, like daughter", which tells us that not only was Jerusalem a harlot, but her mother was a harlot, her sisters are harlots, and all their daughters are thereby harlots, just like their mothers.

The difference is, Jerusalem and her daughters are singled out as being unique harlots, and for being worse than the others.  If the requirement mother of harlots is taken at face value, then it is obvious that Jerusalem qualifies.  When it is changed to mother of all harlotry then no one qualifies, but that is not what the passage says.

 

 

We haven't really gotten into anything at this point, we are still having a difficult time with the title, mother of harlots.  The only other detail mentioned thus far was in regards to the double portion and you did not respond to that, but really we have barely scratched the surface on specifics.

Hello Wing and Steve,

Do you both  have time to listen to this speaker, he explains Babylon so well  ,it's interesting to go into this a little deeper as many ministers and Bible teachers used to explain it different,please let me know what you think of this explanation,I agree with the speaker.

Babylon will most likely be rebuild..

 

[wingnut-]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:54 AM, angels4u said:

Hello Wing and Steve,

Do you both  have time to listen to this speaker, he explains Babylon so well  ,it's interesting to go into this a little deeper as many ministers and Bible teachers used to explain it different,please let me know what you think of this explanation,I agree with the speaker.

Babylon will most likely be rebuild..

 

I did watch the sermon yesterday, and 2 years ago I agreed with his position, but no longer.  What the gentleman fails to do is address some very important aspects in regards to timing, which he talks around a bit.  As far as addressing the Jerusalem end of things, he fails miserably, attacking one individual's flawed eschatology from a preterist perspective.  Of course there wouldn't be a single preterist that would see Babylon as Babylon because at the time they believe everything occurred Babylon was insignificant.  Addressing things from just that one single viewpoint does not begin to address the scripture in question.  So let's just look at one specific angle that cannot be reconciled by his position, the timing.

 

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

 

The 7th bowl puts the end of Babylon right at the end of everything, and by his position that puts the beast and his armies in Babylon right at that moment.  This simply does not align with scripture, look at what takes place at the 6th bowl.

 

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

The beast and his armies, along with all the kings and their armies assemble at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, they do not survive that, and it is not happening in Iraq, it is happening just outside of Jerusalem.  So there is a serious timing issue in that regard, then on top of that, where does scripture say everyone goes, and what city is it that they come up against?

 

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

 

Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.

 

Also comparing what the beast and the ten kings do to the woman to what else Zechariah tells us.

 

Zechariah 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

Also, Isaiah in addressing the state of the land at the restoration of Israel.

 

Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the Lord:
“In a time of favor I have answered you;
    in a day of salvation I have helped you;
I will keep you and give you
    as a covenant to the people,
to establish the land,
    to apportion the desolate heritages,

 

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see;
    they all gather, they come to you.
As I live, declares the Lord,
    you shall put them all on as an ornament;
    you shall bind them on as a bride does.

19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places
    and your devastated land—
surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants,
    and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

 

 

[angels4u]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I did watch the sermon yesterday, and 2 years ago I agreed with his position, but no longer.  What the gentleman fails to do is address some very important aspects in regards to timing, which he talks around a bit.  As far as addressing the Jerusalem end of things, he fails miserably, attacking one individual's flawed eschatology from a preterist perspective.  Of course there wouldn't be a single preterist that would see Babylon as Babylon because at the time they believe everything occurred Babylon was insignificant.  Addressing things from just that one single viewpoint does not begin to address the scripture in question.  So let's just look at one specific angle that cannot be reconciled by his position, the timing.

 

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

 

The 7th bowl puts the end of Babylon right at the end of everything, and by his position that puts the beast and his armies in Babylon right at that moment.  This simply does not align with scripture, look at what takes place at the 6th bowl.

 

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

The beast and his armies, along with all the kings and their armies assemble at Armageddon at the 6th bowl, they do not survive that, and it is not happening in Iraq, it is happening just outside of Jerusalem.  So there is a serious timing issue in that regard, then on top of that, where does scripture say everyone goes, and what city is it that they come up against?

 

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

 

Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it.

 

Also comparing what the beast and the ten kings do to the woman to what else Zechariah tells us.

 

Zechariah 14: 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

Also, Isaiah in addressing the state of the land at the restoration of Israel.

 

Isaiah 49:8 Thus says the Lord:
“In a time of favor I have answered you;
    in a day of salvation I have helped you;
I will keep you and give you
    as a covenant to the people,
to establish the land,
    to apportion the desolate heritages,

 

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see;
    they all gather, they come to you.
As I live, declares the Lord,
    you shall put them all on as an ornament;
    you shall bind them on as a bride does.

19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places
    and your devastated land—
surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants,
    and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

 

 

The topic is very interesting and I'm studying a little more,I'm listening to David Hocking right now..

[wingnut-]

34 minutes ago, angels4u said:

The topic is very interesting and I'm studying a little more,I'm listening to David Hocking right now..

 

It is indeed interesting, I am about to try my third attempt to respond to Steve on one particular post, the first two times now I have lost everything lol.

[angels4u]

57 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

It is indeed interesting, I am about to try my third attempt to respond to Steve on one particular post, the first two times now I have lost everything lol.

You will  find it again, this topic keeps me busy trying to find out if Babylon is a city in the endtimes, I tend to believe that it is  But not all speakers agree on this topic, what do you think of this article? 

Babylon the Great

1. Ecclesiastical Babylon

"MYSTERY,"
Babylon the Great.
Rev. 17:1-18.

That the ancient city of Babylon restored is to play an important part in the startling events of the last days of this Dispensation, is very clear. This is seen from what is said of it in the seventeenth and eighteenth chapters of the Book of Revelation. At first sight the two chapters, which contain some things in common, are difficult to reconcile, but when we get the "Key" the reconciliation is easy.

The seventeenth chapter speaks of a "Woman," and this "Woman" is called

"MYSTERY,"
Babylon the Great,
The Mother of Harlots
And
Abominations of the Earth."

The eighteenth chapter speaks of a "City," a literal city, called "Babylon the Great." That the "Woman" and the "City" do not symbolize the same thing is clear, for what is said of the "Woman" does not apply to a city, and what is said of the "City" does not apply to a woman. The "Woman" is destroyed by the "Ten Kings," while the "Kings of the Earth" in the next chapter, "bewail and lament" the destruction of the "City," which is not destroyed by them, but by a mighty earthquake and fire. Again the "Woman" is destroyed Three and a Half Years BEFORE THE CITY; and the fact that the first verse of chapter eighteen says-"after these things," that is after the destruction of the "Woman" what happens to the "City" occurs, shows that the "Woman" and the "City" are not one and the same.

The "Woman's" name is-

"MYSTERY, Babylon the Great."

"Mystery!" Where have we heard that word before, and in what connection? Paul calls the Church a "Mystery" because it was not known to the Old Testament Patriarchs and Prophets. Eph. 3:1-21. That Christ was to have a "Bride" was first revealed to Paul (Eph. 5:23-32), and the "Mystery" that Antichrist is to have a "bride" was first revealed to John on the Isle of Patmos. The name of Antichrist's "bride" is "Babylon the Great." Some one may ask why give to a "bride" the name of a "City"? The answer is that it is not unusual in the Scriptures. When the same angel that showed John in this chapter "Mystery, Babylon the Great," came to him in chapter 21:9-10 and said-"Come hither, I will shew thee the Bride-'The Lamb's Wife,"' he showed John, instead of a woman, that great City, the "Holy Jerusalem" descending out of Heaven from God. Here we see that a "city" is called a "bride" because its inhabitants, and not the city itself, are the bride. "Mystery, Babylon the Great," the "bride" of Antichrist, then, is not a literal city, but a "System," a religious and apostate "System." As the Church, the Bride of Christ, is composed of regenerated followers of Christ, so "Mystery, Babylon the Great," the bride of Antichrist, will be composed of the followers of all False Religions.

The river Euphrates, on which the city of Babylon was built, was one of the four branches into which the river that flowed through the Garden of Eden was divided, and Satan doubtless chose the site of Babylon as his headquarters from which to sally forth to tempt Adam and Eve. It was doubtless here that the Antediluvian Apostasy had its source that ended in the Flood. To this centre the "forces of Evil" gravitated after the Flood, and "Babel" was the result. This was the origin of nations, but the nations were not scattered abroad over the earth until Satan had implanted in them the "Virus" of a doctrine that has been the source of every false religion the world has ever known.

Babel, or Babylon, was built by Nimrod. Gen. 10:8-10. It was the seat of the first great Apostasy. Here the "Babylonian Cult" was invented, a system claiming to possess the highest wisdom and to reveal the divinest secrets. Before a member could be initiated he had to "confess" to the Priest. The Priest then had him in his power. This is the secret of the power of the Priests of the Roman Catholic Church today.

Once admitted into this order men were no longer Babylonians, Assyrians, or Egyptians, but members of a

Mystical Brotherhood,

over whom was placed a Pontiff or "High Priest," whose word was law. The city of Babylon continued to be the seat of Satan until the fall of the Babylonian and Medo-Persian Empires, when he shifted his Capital to Pergamos in Asia Minor, where it was in John's day. Rev. 2:12,13.

When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos, died in B.C. 133, he bequeathed the Headship of the "Babylonian Priesthood" to Rome. When the Etruscans came to Italy from Lydia (the region of Pergamos), they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was head of the Priesthood. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler. Julius Caesar was made Pontiff of the Etruscan Order in B.C. 74. In B.C. 63 he was made "Supreme Pontiff" of the "Babylonian Order," thus becoming heir to the rights and titles of Attalus, Pontiff of Pergamos, who had made Rome his heir by will. Thus the first Roman Emperor became the Head of the "Babylonian Priesthood," and Rome the successor of Babylon. The Emperors of Rome continued to exercise the office of "Supreme Pontiff" until A.D. 376, when the Emperor Gratian, for Christian reasons, refused it. The Bishop of the Church at Rome, Damasus, was elected to the position. He had been Bishop 12 years, having been made Bishop in A.D. 366, through the influence of the monks of Mt. Carmel, a college of Babylonian religion originally founded by the priests of Jezebel. So in A.D. 378 the Head of the "Babylonian Order" became the Ruler of the "Roman Church." Thus Satan united

Rome and Babylon
In One Religious System.

Soon after Damasus was made "Supreme Pontiff" the "rites" of Babylon began to come to the front. The worship of the Virgin Mary was set up in A.D. 381. All the outstanding festivals of the Roman Catholic Church are of Babylonian origin. Easter is not a Christian name. It means "Ishtar," one of the titles of the Babylonian Queen of Heaven, whose worship by the Children of Israel was such an abomination in the sight of God. The decree for the observance of Easter and Lent was given in A.D. 519. The "Rosary" is of Pagan origin. There is no warrant in the Word of God for the use of the "Sign of the Cross." It had its origin in the mystic "Tau" of the Chaldeans and Egyptians. It came from the letter "T," the initial name of "Tammuz," and was used in the "Babylonian Mysteries" for the same magic purposes as the Romish Church now employs it. Celibacy, the Tonsure, and the Order of Monks and Nuns, have no warrant or authority from Scripture. The Nuns are nothing more than an imitation of the "Vestal Virgins" of Pagan Rome.

As to the word "Mystery," the Papal Church has always shrouded herself in mystery. The mystery of "Baptismal Regeneration;" the mystery of "Miracle and Magic" whereby the simple memorials of the Lord's Supper are changed by the mysterious word "Transubstantiation," from simple bread and wine into the literal Body and Blood of Christ; the mystery of the "Holy Water;" the mystery of "Lights on the Altar," the "Mystery Plays," and other superstitious rites and ceremonies mumbled in a language that tends to mystery, and tends to confusion which is the meaning of the word Babylon.

All this was a "Mystery" in John's day, because the "Papal Church" had not as yet developed; though the "Mystery of Iniquity" was already at work (2 Thess. 2:7), but it is no longer a "Mystery" for it is now easy to identify the "Woman"-Mystery, Babylon the Great," which John described as the "Papal Church."

In Rev. 17:4 we read that the "Woman" "was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a 'Golden Cup' in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications."

Now who does not know that scarlet and purple are the colors of the Papacy? Of the different articles of attire specified for the Pope to wear when he is installed into office five are scarlet. A vest covered with pearls, and a mitre, adorned with gold and precious stones was also to be worn. How completely this answers the description of the Woman's dress as she sits upon the Scarlet Colored Beast.

We are also told that the Woman was "drunken with the blood of the Saints, and with the blood of the Martyrs of Jesus." While this refers more particularly to the martyrs of the time of Antichrist, yet who does not know, who has studied the history of the Christian Church for the past nineteen centuries, that this is true of the Papal Church during those centuries? One has only to read the history of the persecutions of the early Christians and more particularly the story of the "Inquisition" in Papal lands, to see that the Papal Church has been "drunk" with the blood of the Saints.

The fact that the Woman sits on a "Scarlet Colored Beast" reveals the fact that at that time the Beast (Antichrist) will support the Woman in her ecclesiastical pretensions, or in other words, the Woman, as a "State Church," will control and rule the State, and her long dream of world-wide Ecclesiastical Supremacy will at last be realized, for John tells us that "the waters which thou sawest, where the 'Whore' sitteth, are Peoples, and Multitudes, and Nations and Tongues." That means that after the "True Church" (the Bride of Christ) is taken out of the world the "False" or "Papal Church" (the bride of Antichrist) will remain, and the professing body of Christians (having the "form of Godliness without the power") left behind, will largely enter the Papal Church, and, it will become the Universal Church. But this will continue for only a short time for the "Ten Kings" of the "Federated Kingdom," finding their power curtailed by the "Papal System" will "hate The Whore," and strip her of her gorgeous apparel, confiscate her wealth (eat her flesh) and burn her churches and cathedrals with fire. Rev. 17:16.

This will occur at the time the worship of the Beast is set up, for Antichrist in his jealous hate will not permit any worship that does not centre in himself.

The Beast upon which the Woman sits is introduced to show from whom the Woman (the Papal Church) gets her power and support after the True Church has been "caught out," and also to show that the Beast (Antichrist) and the Woman (the Papal Church) are not one and the same, but separate. Therefore the Papacy is not Antichrist. For a description of the "Scarlet Colored Beast" see the Chapter on The Antichrist.

From this foreview of the Papacy we see that the Papal Church is not a dying "System." That she is to be revived and become a "Universal Church," and in doing so is to commit fornication with the kings of the earth, and that she shall again be "drunk with the blood" of the martyrs of the Tribulation Period. The meaning of chapter seventeen of the Book of Revelation is no longer a Mystery; the prophetic portrait of the Woman there given corresponds too closely with the history of the Papal Church to be a mere coincidence.

2. Commercial Babylon.

Rev. 18:1-24.

This chapter begins with the words "after these things." What things? The things recorded in the previous chapter, the destruction of "Mystical Babylon."

If "Mystical Babylon" was destroyed in the previous chapter then she cannot appear in this chapter, and the "City" here described must be a literal city called Babylon, and as there is no city of that name on the earth today, nor has been since the ancient city of Babylon was destroyed, it must refer to some future city of Babylon. That the two chapters refer to different things is further verified by the fact that they are announced by different angels. The events of chapter seventeen are announced by one of the "Vial" Angels, while those of the eighteenth are announced by "another" angel; probably the "Second Angel Messenger," who by way of anticipation, announced in chapter 14:8, the "Fall of Babylon," that is there called-"That Great City."

The ancient city of Babylon from the days of Nimrod (Gen. 10:10), grew in size and importance century after century until it reached its greatest glory in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar B.C. 604-562. As described by Herodotus it was an exact square of 15 miles on a side, or 60 miles around, and was surrounded by a brick wall 87 feet thick, and 350 feet high, though probably that is a mistake, 100 feet being nearer the height. On the wall were 250 towers, and the top of the wall was wide enough to allow 6 chariots to drive abreast. Outside this wall was a vast ditch surrounding the city, kept filled with water from the river Euphrates; and inside the wall, and not far from it, was another wall, not much inferior, but narrower, extending around the city.

Twenty-five magnificent avenues, 150 feet wide, ran across the city from North to South, and the same number crossed them at right angles from East to West, making 676 great squares, each nearly three-fifths of a mile on a side, and the city was divided into two equal parts by the river Euphrates, that flowed diagonally through it, and whose banks, within the city, were walled up, and pierced with brazen gates, with steps leading down to the river. At the ends of the main avenues, on each side of the city, were gates, whose leaves were of brass, and that shone as they were opened or closed in the rising or setting sun, like "leaves of flame."

The Euphrates within the city was spanned by a bridge, at each end of which was a palace, and these palaces were connected by a subterranean passageway, or tube, underneath the bed of the river; in which at different points were located sumptuous banqueting rooms constructed entirely of brass.

Near one of these palaces stood the

"Tower of Bel,"

or Babel, consisting of 8 towers, each 75 feet high, rising one upon the other, with an outside winding stairway to its summit, which towers, with the Chapel on the top, made a height of 660 feet. This Chapel contained the most expensive furniture of any place of worship in the world. One golden image alone, 45 feet high, was valued at $17,500,000, and the whole of the sacred utensils were reckoned to be worth $200,000,000.

Babylon also contained one of the "Seven Wonders" of the world, the famous Hanging Gardens.

These Gardens were 400 feet square, and were raised in terraces one above the other to the height of 350 feet, and were reached by stairways 10 feet wide. The top of each terrace was covered with large stones, on which was laid a bed of rushes, then a thick layer of asphalt, next two courses of brick, cemented together, and finally plates of lead to prevent leakage; the whole was then covered with earth and planted with shrubbery and large trees. The whole had the appearance from a distance of a forest-covered mountain, which would be a remarkable sight in the level plain of the Euphrates. These Gardens were built by Nebuchadnezzar simply to please his wife; who came from the mountainous country of Media, and who was thus made contented with her surroundings. The rest of the city was, in its glory and magnificence, in keeping with these palaces, towers, and "Hanging Gardens." The character of its inhabitants and of its official life is seen in the description of "Belshazzar's Feast" in Dan. 5:1-31.

Babylon was probably the most magnificent city the world has ever seen and its fall reveals what a city may become when it forsakes God and He sends His judgment upon it. It is so intimately connected with the history of God's people that the Scriptures have much to say about it. A large part of the Book of Daniel and of the prophecy of Jeremiah relate to it, and it is mentioned in 11 other books of the Old Testament, and in 4 of the New Testament. And that the Book of Revelation is a continuation of the Book of Daniel is further proven by the fact that the city of Babylon is again spoken of in it, and its prominence in the affairs of the world at the "End Time" disclosed, and its final destruction foretold.

That the ancient city of Babylon was destroyed there can be no question, but when we affirm that it is to be rebuilt and again destroyed we are met with two objections.

That all the Old Testament prophecies in reference to its destruction have been literally fulfilled, and that it cannot be rebuilt.

As there is no city of Babylon now in existence the references in the Book of Revelation to the destruction of such a city must be symbolical and not refer to a literal city.

Let us take up the first objection. For a description of Babylon and her destruction we must turn to Isaiah, chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah, chapters 50 and 51. In these two prophecies we find much that has not as yet been fulfilled in regard to the city of Babylon.

The city of Babylon was captured in B.C. 541 by Cyrus, who was mentioned "by name" in prophecy 125 years before he was born. Isa. 44:28-45:4, B.C. 712. So quietly and quickly was the city taken on the night of Belshazzar's Feast by draining the river that flowed through the city, and entering by the river bed, and the gates that surmounted its banks, that the Babylonian guards had forgotten to lock that night, that some of the inhabitants did not know until the "third" day that the king had been slain and the city taken. There was no destruction of the city at that time.

Some years after it revolted against Darius Hystaspis, and after a fruitless siege of nearly 20 months was taken by strategy. This was in B.C. 516. About B.C. 478 Xerxes, on his return from Greece plundered and injured, if he did not destroy, the great "Temple of Bel."

In B.C. 331 Alexander the Great approached the city which was then so powerful and flourishing that he made preparation for bringing all his forces into action in case it should offer resistance, but the citizens threw open the gates and received him with acclamations. After sacrificing to "Bel," he gave out that he would rebuild the vast Temple of that god, and for weeks he kept 10,000 men employed in clearing away the ruins from the foundations, doubtless intending to revive the glory of Babylon and make it his capital, when his purpose was defeated by his sudden death of marsh-fever and intemperance in his thirty-third year.

During the subsequent wars of his generals Babylon suffered much and finally came under the power of Seleucus, who, prompted by ambition to build a Capital for himself, founded Seleucia in its neighborhood about B.C. 293. This rival city gradually drew off the inhabitants of Babylon, so that Strabo, who died in A.D. 25, speaks of the latter as being to a great extent deserted. Nevertheless the Jews left from the Captivity still resided there in large numbers, and in A.D. 60 we find the Apostle Peter working among them, for it was from Babylon that Peter wrote his Epistle (I Pet. 5:13), addressed "to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia."

About the middle of the 5th century Theodoret speaks of Babylon as being inhabited only by Jews, who had still three Jewish Universities, and in the last year of the same century the "Babylonian Talmud" was issued, and recognized as authoritative by the Jews of the whole world.

In A.D. 917 Ibu Hankel mentions Babylon as an insignificant village, but still in existence. About A.D. 1100 it seems to have again grown into a town of some importance, for it was then known as the "Two Mosques." Shortly afterwards it was enlarged and fortified and received the name of Hillah, or "Rest." In A.D. 1898 Hillah contained about 10,000 inhabitants, and was surrounded by fertile lands, and abundant date groves stretched along the banks of the Euphrates. Certainly it has never been true that "neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there, neither shall the shepherds make their fold there." Isa. 13:20. Nor can it be said of Babylon-"Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby." Jer. 51:43. Nor can it be said-"And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations, but thou shalt be desolate forever, saith the Lord" (Jer. 51:26), for many towns and cities have been built from the ruins of Babylon, among them Four Capital Cities, Seleucia, built by the Greeks; Ctesiphon, by the Parthians, Al Maiden, by the Persians; and Kufa, by the Caliphs. Hillah was entirely constructed from the debris, and even in the houses of Bagdad, Babylonian stamped bricks may be frequently noticed.

But Isaiah is still more specific for he locates the Time when his prophecy will be fulfilled. He calls it the "Day of the Lord." Isa. 13:9. That is the Millennium. And he locates it at the beginning of the Millennium, or during the events that usher in the Millennium, for he says-

"The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isa. 13:10 (Luke 21:25-27).

Surely nothing like this happened when Babylon was taken by Cyrus.

In the description of the destruction of the city of Babylon given in Rev. 18, we read that her judgment will come in one hour (vs. 10), and that in one hour she shall be made desolate (vs. 19), and as an illustration of the suddenness and completeness of her destruction, a mighty angel took up a stone like a Great Millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying-"Thus with Violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down and shall be found no more at all." Rev. 18:21.

We are also told in the same chapter that she is to be destroyed by FIRE (Rev. 18:8,9,18), and this is in exact harmony with the words of Isa. 13:19.

"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew

Sodom and Gomorrah;"

and the Prophet Jeremiah makes the same statement. Jer. 50:40.

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not protracted through many centuries, their glory disappeared in a few hours (Gen. 19:24-28), and as ancient Babylon was not thus destroyed, the prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah cannot be fulfilled unless there is to be a Future Babylon that shall be thus destroyed.

In Rev. 16:17-19, we are told that Babylon shall be destroyed by an Earthquake, attended with most vivid and incessant lightning and awful thunder. It would appear then, that as Sodom and Gomorrah were first set on fire and then swallowed up by an earthquake, that the rebuilt city of Babylon will be set on fire, and as the site of ancient Babylon is underlaid with Bitumen (Asphalt), that an earthquake will break up the crust of the earth, and precipitate the burning city into a "Lake of Fire," and the city like a "Millstone" (Rev. 18:21) sink below the surface of the earth as into the sea, and be swallowed up so that it will be impossible to ever take of her stones for building purposes, and the land shall become a Wilderness where no man shall ever dwell.

As to the probability of the ancient city of Babylon being rebuilt we have only to consider the events that in recent years have been happening in that part of the world looking to just such a thing.

In the Department of War of France, at Paris, there is to be seen the records of valuable surveys and maps made by order of Napoleon I, in Babylonia, and among them is a plan for a New City of Babylon, thus showing that the vast schemes of Napoleon comprehended the Rebuilding of the Ancient City of Babylon, and the making it his Capital, as his ambition was to conquer the whole of Europe and Asia, and he recognized to that end the strategical position of ancient Babylon as a governmental and commercial centre.

It is a fact that the whole country of Mesopotamia, Assyria and Babylonia, only needs a system of irrigation to make it again the most fertile country in the world, and steps have already been taken in that direction. In 1850 the British Government sent out a military officer with his command to survey and explore the river Euphrates at a cost of $150,000, and when the European war broke out, the great English Engineer who built the Assouam dam in Egypt, was engaged in making surveys in the Euphratean valley for the purpose of constructing a series of irrigation canals that would restore the country and make it again the great grain producing country it once was. As a result towns and cities would spring up and railroads would be built. What is needed in that part of the world is a "Trans-European-Asiatic-Indian Air Line" that will connect Europe with India, and China. Such a line has been the dream of Emperor- William of Germany. It was that desire that made him and Abdul Hamid, of Turkey, the closest of political friends, and he secured from Abdul Hamid a concession to build a railway from the Asiatic side of the Bosphorus, by way of Aleppo, to the Tigris river, and from there to Bagdad, and from Bagdad via Babylon (via Babylon, mark that) to Koweit on the Persian Gulf, and most of the road has been built to Bagdad.

With these facts in mind it can readily be seen that it is the purpose of European capitalists to revive the country of Babylonia and rebuild its cities, and when once the time comes the city of Babylon will be rebuilt almost in a night and on a scale of magnificence such as the world has never seen.

But I hear a protest. How you say can we be expecting Jesus to come at "any moment," if the city of Babylon must be rebuilt before He can come? There is not a word in Scripture that says that Jesus cannot come and take away His Church, until Babylon is rebuilt. The Church may be taken out of the world 25 or even 50 years before that.

Babylon the Great will be an immense city, the greatest in every respect the world has ever seen. It will be a typical city, the London, the Paris, the Berlin, the Petrograd, the New York, the Chicago of its day. It will be the greatest commercial city of the world. Its merchandise will be of gold and silver, and precious stones and pearls, of purple, and silk, and scarlet and costly woods. Its fashionable society will be clothed in the most costly raiment and decked with the most costly jewels. Their homes will be filled with the most costly furniture of precious woods, brass, iron and marble, with the richest of draperies, mats and rugs. They will use the most costly of perfumes, cinnamon, fragrant odors, ointments and frankincense. Their banquets will be supplied with the sweetest of wines, the richest of pastry, and the most delicious of meats. They will have horses and chariots and the swiftest of fast moving vehicles on earth and in the air. They will have their slaves, and they will traffic in the "souls of men." That is, women will sell their bodies, and men their souls, to gratify their lusts.

The markets will be crowded with cattle, sheep and horses. The wharves will be piled with goods from all climes. The manufactories will turn out the richest of fabrics, and all that genius can invent for the comfort and convenience of men will be found on the market. It will be a city given over to pleasure and business. Business men and promoters will give their days and nights to scheming how to make money fast, and the pleasure loving will be constantly planning new pleasures. There will be riotous joy and ceaseless feasting. As it was in the days of Noah and of Lot, they will be marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling, building and planting.

The blood will run hot in their veins. Money will be their god, pleasure their high-priest, and unbridled passion the ritual of their worship.

It will be a city of music. Amid the noise and bustle of its commercial life will be heard the music of its pleasure resorts and theatres. There will be the sound of "harpers and musicians, of pipers and trumpeters" (vs. 22). The world's best singers and players will be there. Its theatres and places of music will be going day and night. In fact there will be no night, for the electric illumination of the city by night will make the night as bright and shadowless as the day, and its stores and places of business will never close, night of day, or Sunday, for the mad whirl of pleasure and the absorbing desire for riches will keep the wheels of business constantly moving. And all this will be easy because the "God of this World"-Satan, will possess the minds and bodies of men, for we read in verse 2, that Babylon at that time will be "the Habitation-of Devils, and the Hold of Every Foul Spirit, and the Cage of Every Unclean and Hateful Bird." The city will be the seat of the most imposing "OCCULTISM," and mediums, and those desiring to communicate with the other world, will then go to Babylon, as men and women now go to Paris for fashions and sensuous pleasures. In that day demons, disembodied souls, and unclean spirits will find at Babylon the opportunity of their lives to materialize themselves in human bodies, and from the atmospheric heavens above, and from the Abyss below they will come in countless legions until Babylon shall be full of demon possesssed men and women, and at the height of its glory, and just before its fall, Babylon will be ruled by SATAN HIMSELF, incarnate in the "Beast"-ANTICHRIST.

But before its destruction God will mercifully deliver His own people, for a voice from heaven will cry

"Come Out of Her, My People, That Ye be Not Partakers of Her Sins, and that Ye Receive Not of Her Plagues." vs. 4.

As Sodom and Gomorrah could not be destroyed until righteous Lot had escaped, so Babylon cannot be destroyed until all the righteous people in it have fled.

The destruction of the city will be sudden and without warning. A fearful storm will sweep over the city. The lightning and thunder will be incessant. The city will be set on fire and a great earthquake will shake it from centre to circumference. The tall office buildings, the "Hanging Gardens" and the great towers will totter and fall, the crust of the earth will crack and open, and the whole city with its inhabitants will sink like a "Millstone," (vs. 21), into a lake of burning bitumen, and the smoke will ascend as of a burning fiery furnace, and the horror of the scene will be intensified by vast clouds of steam, generated by the waters of the Euphrates pouring into that lake of fiery asphalt, and when night comes on those clouds of steam will reflect the light of the burning city so it can be seen for miles in all directions in that level country. And the kings of the earth, and the merchants, and the shipmasters, and sailors, and all who have profited by her merchandise, will stand afar off and cry, and wail because of her destruction, but the heavens will rejoice for God will have rewarded her Double according to her works, and BABYLON WILL BE NO MORE.https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/dt/24.cfm

[wingnut-]

On 11/14/2019 at 4:34 PM, Steve_S said:

This is with regards to a very specific thing, not actual physical lineage:

Eze 16:36  Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your filthiness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotry with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children which you gave to them, 
Eze 16:37  surely, therefore, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved, and all those you hated; I will gather them from all around against you and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. 

They participated in child sacrifice, which is one of the things that caused God to order them to do away with the Amorites in the first place. God told Abraham that they had to tarry in Egypt specifically until the iniquity of the Amorites was complete or had come to full fruition.

 

Yes, and what those verses indicate to me is that the deeds of the people, which were not just limited to child sacrifice, but also idolatry and intermarriages with the Canaanites are what is in question here.  So we are not simply talking about a city, but a kingdom, which includes city, king, and the people that live within it.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 4:34 PM, Steve_S said:

But, since we are on Ezekiel 16 and it is being used as a proof text as part of an argument to show that Jerusalem will be destroyed forever, this is the question I have, what does this mean?

Eze 16:59  For thus says the Lord GOD: "I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant. 
Eze 16:60  "Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 
Eze 16:61  Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 
Eze 16:62  And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, 
Eze 16:63  that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done," says the Lord GOD.' "

 

I would say this applies to the overall context of the chapter, which is dealing with a kingdom.  I don't imagine you believe the actual city committed these offenses anymore than I do.  What we are really talking about here is a kingdom.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 4:34 PM, Steve_S said:

So the physical Jerusalem that exists now, this doesn't apply?

 

The argument for a physical Jerusalem comes mostly from one specific chapter in Zechariah.  So the question is, what exactly is Zechariah speaking of?

 

Zechariah 14:10 The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses. 11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security.

 

First he tells us what John tells us, along with other prophets like Isaiah, that the land is turned to a plain, the mountains are brought down and the valleys are raised.  The area he speaks of begins with Geba, which was located about 5 1/2 miles north of Jerusalem in the territory of Benjamin.  No one seems to agree on exactly where Rimmon was located, but in the book of Joshua we see it is part of Judah's allotment, one of 29 cities located at the extreme south along the border of Edom.  That border went all the way down to what was known as the Gulf of Aqaba, which is the right arm of the Red Sea that extends up to define the Sinai peninsula.

Then Zechariah speaks about the Benjamin Gate.  Scripture speaks of a Benjamin gate 3 times in the book of Jeremiah (20:2, 37:13, 38:7).  The only other two times it is mentioned in scripture are Zechariah 14 above, and Ezekiel 48:32, which is in relation to the Millennial kingdom in which there are 12 gates, all of which are named after the 12 tribes of Israel.

There are currently 8 gates in Jerusalem, named the following, Jaffa Gate, Zion Gate, Dung Gate, Golden Gate, Stephen's Gate, Herod's Gate, Damascus Gate, and New Gate.  All 8 of those gates were built by the Turkish sultan Suleiman the Magnificent in the early 16th century, and it seems highly unlikely to me that they have any association to the gates Zechariah speaks of.

There was also a tower of Hananel at one point, it is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:38, and twice in Nehemiah (3:1, 12:39).  The fact that it no longer stands also speaks to the Millennial kingdom and the place Christ went to prepare for us, and has nothing to do with modern day Jerusalem.  An interesting sidenote, Hananel literally means "God has been gracious".

Zechariah also says in the passage that there will never again be a decree of utter destruction, which points to the city which exists today being utterly destroyed.

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, angels4u said:

You will  find it again, this topic keeps me busy trying to find out if Babylon is a city in the endtimes, I tend to believe that it is  But not all speakers agree on this topic, what do you think of this article? 

 

The eighteenth chapter speaks of a "City," a literal city, called "Babylon the Great." That the "Woman" and the "City" do not symbolize the same thing is clear, for what is said of the "Woman" does not apply to a city, and what is said of the "City" does not apply to a woman.

 

I think he is very confused angels, just from what I quoted above he makes the same mistake that those who want to turn the woman into "religion" make, he disregards what the angel specifically gives as the interpretation for the woman.

 

Revelation 17: 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

 

6 highlighted words undo his entire argument, period.

 

His confusion enters because of failure to grasp the timing and to take into account all the information we have gained from within scripture.  What trips so many people up is they cannot understand how the beast and the kings can turn on the woman and destroy her.  It is really very simple when you consider the when, and the why.

 

Start with the why.

 

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

 

Satan has always wanted to changed God's plan, convinced by doing so he can somehow win the war.  A large part of that throughout history has been to claim Jerusalem, as he does not understand the difference between earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem.  From the moment he is cast down to the earth he wants to destroy the Israelites, but God won't let him.  This makes him furious, but he has overrun the city already by this point and takes out his frustration on Christians instead.  The remnant of Jews are protected for 1260 days exactly, so that leads us to the when part.

 

Revelation 17:15 And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

The city of Jerusalem was overrun by the gentiles 3.5 years earlier, which is why you see the multitude, nations, and languages represented.  We are now at the end, the war on the saints is over and so is the protection for the woman, so the enemy can now do exactly what he originally intended to do by destroying the Jewish people and the city, the kingdom of Israel if you prefer.  The end is near, the signs of Jesus' coming are in the sky and the enemy knows it is almost over so he sets about doing what God has willed for him to do.

So the why is because this is what God intends for him to do, and the when can only be carried out once the time of protection is over.  This is why it happens at the very end, which that author also is confused about trying to claim Babylon falls twice.  John tells us when it falls, right at the end.

[wingnut-]

On 11/14/2019 at 4:38 PM, Steve_S said:

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

Whatever Babylon is, it is an actual place. If is the current Jerusalem being thrown down at the end of the current age and just prior to the Millennial reign, then we have to believe that it is going to be a physical place going forward. Birds can't live in metaphors.

Is there, in the midst of the reconstituted canaan that has Israel dwelling there in peace and safety, going to be a literal city of ruins that is inhabited by demons?

 

Yes, it is called the lake of fire, which also is consistent with the Jewish Gehenna, where rubbish is disposed of outside the city.  The next question would be, how do we know that?

 

Revelation 19:3 Once more they cried out,

“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.”

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence[e] had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

 

The lake of fire is there for the beast and the false prophet at the conclusion of Armageddon, and satan and the rest of the wicked join them at the end of the Millennium.

 

Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

And later we are told that they are outside the city.

 

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

[wingnut-]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:37 PM, Steve_S said:

In reading through your post. I think I must get it out there that we may define literally differently. Of course, there is a necessity to understand that there is metaphor. So for instance, if the scripture says a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, then one would obviously take that metaphorically, particularly when interpretations are given of that beast.

However, if the scripture literally says the word Babylon multiple times through several chapters in reference to a literal physical city that still existed at that time, it is incredibly difficult for me to view it as anything *but that.*

 

I don't think we do honestly, 2 years ago I also believed it would be Babylon based on the same literal understanding you are using today.  The difference really comes down to how we view what happened to ancient Babylon and whether or not it can be restored as a kingdom.  Based on what we are told in Daniel 5 I don't believe it is possible for a restored Babylon.  God said their days were numbered, and that very night a Mede took over the kingdom.  I just don't see how that can be undone.  Because of that fact, there must be another explanation.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 10:37 PM, Steve_S said:

Ah, but therein lies another problem. We can say "mother of harlots" rather than mother of all harlots. That once again opens up a number of other possibilities which are far stronger. I see no problem with removing "all" from the title. However, I also see nowhere in the text that requires "unique" harlots or "worse" harlots either. That's the real problem. As you say, the text literally just says "mother of harlots." There is no impetus to read Jerusalem into that.

 

I agree that it leaves open other possibilities, the purpose was to establish that Jerusalem does in fact qualify, not that no one else does.  From Ezekiel 16 itself we see that Samaria and Sodom both qualify, but Sodom was eliminated of course, and Samaria has not been a kingdom since the Assyrian invasion.  If there are other mother of harlots in scripture, we can certainly consider the possibility.  The mother of harlots designation is just one thing that points at Jerusalem though.

 

On 11/14/2019 at 10:37 PM, Steve_S said:

I read back a bit and did find this part (I am often trying to respond to these far faster than I should lol). I'd like to focus on one verse.

Isaiah 40:2  Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

Now, if this is a direct allusion to Jerusalem receiving a double portion in a Revelation 17-18 sense, why is comfort being spoken? Jerusalem would be a smoking ruin with nothing left, yet, it was pardoned?

 

Isaiah begins this in verse 1 though as referencing His people, so in this instance based on context it does not appear to apply to the city itself, but moreso the kingdom.

 

Isaiah 40  

Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
    and cry to her
that her warfare is ended,
    that her iniquity is pardoned,
that she has received from the Lord's hand
    double for all her sins.

3 A voice cries:
“In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord;
    make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be lifted up,
    and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
    and the rough places a plain.
5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
    and all flesh shall see it together,
    for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I don't think we do honestly, 2 years ago I also believed it would be Babylon based on the same literal understanding you are using today.  The difference really comes down to how we view what happened to ancient Babylon and whether or not it can be restored as a kingdom.  Based on what we are told in Daniel 5 I don't believe it is possible for a restored Babylon.  God said their days were numbered, and that very night a Mede took over the kingdom.  I just don't see how that can be undone.  Because of that fact, there must be another explanation.

What specific part of Revelation 17 or 18 leads you to believe that a kingdom is in view here? Again, is this being read into the text? Revelation specifies a city, nothing else.

I see no evidence that there is a reestablished kingdom of Babylon in the classical sense. But, even if it were, that's not a problem.

Dan 5:25  "And this is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 
Dan 5:26  This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; 

Dan 5:27  TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; 
Dan 5:28  PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians." 

Whose kingdom? Belshazzar's. Who was Belshazzar?

He was the son of Nabonidus, probably the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar was the son of Nabopolassar, who led a rebellion against the Assyrians. In short, when Babylon fell, Belshazzar's kingdom that he inherited from his father and grandfather was divided and given to the medes and persians and *his* kingdom was finished. You can absolutely, positively make an argument that the ruler of any future babylon will most certainly not be of the line of Nabopolassar. That has nothing to do with the city or any future kingdom under it. The city of Babylon and the area that it had ruled was not at all finished, not for millennia. It continued on for many, many centuries. There is not a single thing in this specific text that would imply anything outside of the fact that the line of kings had fallen. The very next day the "kingdom of babylon" was in the hands of a Mede named Darius. Darius ruled from Babylon as the king of... Babylon. Cyrus ruled from Susa as the king of Persia. That's why it was said that it was divided and given to both the Medes and Persians. Cyrus army conquered it but a Mede ruled over it from within the Persian empire.

We know that Darius was the king of a kingdom because of Daniel 6:

Dan 6:1  It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom one hundred and twenty satraps, to be over the whole kingdom; 
Dan 6:2  and over these, three governors, of whom Daniel was one, that the satraps might give account to them, so that the king would suffer no loss.

The kingdom of babylon had not went anywhere as an entity, it had simply switched hands. It was the royal line which Belshazzar ended that was finished and he was only the fourth generation in this line (most likely, anyway).