Who is THE RESTRAINER in 2Thessalonians ch 2?

[enoob57]

On 11/30/2019 at 5:17 PM, Buddy D. Mouse said:

If God is doing the withholding, how can God be taken out of the way?

 

wickedness is one way God removes Himself from
Romans 1:23 (KJV)

[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

and we know that in the last days wickedness increases so that the love of many will wax cold...

Matthew 24:6 (KJV)

[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.

[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[MrBear]

I remember my first post here was about this topic but I did use the apocrypha so feel free to unpack or denounce I’m ok with that

but it’s an angel

 

[transmogrified]

First thing we need to do is see the context of what Paul was addressing, and how it relates to the following dialogue.

The  issue was that there were some of the believers that had been led to believe that the Lord's coming was nigh at hand. There is evidence they were receiving much persecution at the time and were going through tribulations as it states here:

2 Thess. 2:4- "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure..." 

Paul had even encouraged them to take heart and to be assured that when Jesus comes he will take vengeance on those that were persecuting them.  

2 Thess. 1:5 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who trouble you..." and when Jesus is revealed from heaven he will...'in flaming fire take vengeance on those who know not God and do not obey the Gospel."

Paul was reminding them of what he had already told them before about the things that would have to happen before the day of the Lord would come. In other words, he was bringing them back to the specific signs that would have to occur before the day of the Lord would come, and that being persecuted and going through tribulations was not proof that that Jesus was about to return.

Paul was not correcting what would be considered a typical pre trib assumption here, in that Pre Trib does not believe that the church will never suffer persecutions or go through any tribulations, rather they do not believe the church will go through the specific period of time called 'the great tribulation.'

So even though Paul is not correcting Pre trib in this aspect per se, his corrections to the Thessalonians's errors is also useful in correcting other Pre trib errors.

So the first part of the 2nd verse says for them to:

"...not be soon shaken in mind, or be troubled...' So what kind of things could cause one to be shaken in their mind, or what might cause one to be troubled? Being shaken means one is being tossed by winds, storms or waves according to Strongs #4531.

What were they being shaken about? They had been shaken from the truth that Jesus and Paul had told them that there would be a falling away first, and the man of sin had to be revealed before that day would come.

What did Jesus say would come first?  He said many would come in his name confessing he was the Christ but that they would deceive many, he also said there would be wars and rumors of wars and then said 'But the end is NOT yet.'

What else had to happen before the end would come? He said "nation would rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, there would be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and that they would be afflicted and even kill you...but this in and of itself WAS NOT a sign that the end was nigh, or at hand.

But then in verse 10 he says '...and many shall be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." Here we begin to see the falling away Paul was talking about, as he goes on to say 'because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

But remember what Paul is saying in 2 Thess. 2. He is not saying the falling away is in and of itself the thing that indicates his coming is nigh, he says there must be a falling away first, AND the man of sin has to be revealed. So no matter how much falling away we may see, it has to be coupled with the other sign for us to really say 'his coming is nigh.'

  Jesus even used this phrase in Matthew 24 when he goes into the subject of the abomination standing where it ought not..."When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation....spoken of by Daniel...then shall be 'great tribulation.' So here we link up the appearing of the man of sin which begins the period called the great tribulation.

Paul is using these teachings to correct the Thessalonians, that although they were suffering tribulations, the period of 'great tribulation' had not came because there had been no appearance of the man of sin as Jesus had told them must come first.

Of course this is not in accordance with pre trib teaching at all. Paul would not be instructing them there have to be signs before the day of the Lord comes, or tell them they would see the man of sin sitting in the temple of God if he knew all along if they were truly his disciples they would be raptured first and would never see it.

So after Jesus then brings up other things that must happen, he concludes with the saying 'When ye shall see ALL these things,  THEN (and not before) KNOW that IT (the day of the Lord) is NEAR, even at the doors."

So anyway lets go back to the narrative in 2 Thess. 2 as Paul gives us more detail.

2 Thess. 2- "Let no man deceive you by any means.." The same thing Jesus told his disciples

Verse 3 "For that day (the Day of the Lord) shall not come EXCEPT there come:

    a) a falling away first...same thing Jesus said, AND

    b) that man of sin be revealed...

  So he is reminding the Thessalonians what he had already told them before as he says in verse 5 -"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you THESE THINGS."

Ok, now here is the fork in the road where many make a false assumption about what he says in the next verse:

Verse 6 -"And now ye know what witholdeth that he may be revealed in his time."

The false assumption is that he here changes the whole dialogue from the 2 EVENTS he just described as being what has to happen before Jesus will return, unto a completely new dialogue as to what hinders the man of sin from being revealed.

The next verse he does go into the mystery of iniquity, but verse 6 is still connected to his original premise concerning the things that must take place before Jesus returns.

So when he says 'Now ye know what witholds that he may be revealed in his time',he is not talking about what witholds the man of sin from being revealed he is still talking about the immediate context that they now know what is holding JESUS from being revealed in his time.

So now instead of reading 'And now ye know what witholdeth that the he (the man of sin) will be revealed in his time, you should read 'And now ye know what witholds that he (JESUS) will be revealed in his time." The 'HE' in this setting is the key word...if you put in the wrong entity, it throws the whole meaning off, and you begin to ask questions that have already been answered.

 Questions like 'is it Michael the archangel, is it the Holy Spirit, is it the church, because they are assuming the 'He' is the man of sin instead of Jesus.

I have also heard people say things like, 'Well,  they must of known what in the world he was talking about, but since I wasn't there I don't have a clue.' He didn't say 'Now ye know what withholds,' so only they would know...he wrote it so we would know as well. 

So lets go on to the next verse:

7) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The word 'let' as you probably know does not mean 'to allow' as it would in today's meaning, but when it was written, 'let' meant 'to hinder.' 

So when he says  'only he who now hinders will hinder until he be taken out of the way,' what does he mean? Who is hindering what?

He is talking about someone who was hindering and he has been hindering for the past 2000 years because he said he was 'now' hindering even in his day:

"Only he who NOW hinders will hinder until HE be taken out of the way."

So  lets first look who is hindering what here. We can read in 1 Thess. 2:18 that Paul said he would have come unto them sooner but Satan hindered them."

1 Thess. 2:18- "Wherefore we would have come unto yo even I Paul, once and again, but Satan hindered us."

So lets also consider that Satan was not in the man of sin during Pauls day for the man of sin himself had not yet come on the scene yet so the Satan Paul was talking about was the same evil spirit Satan that we fight continually.

So the spirit that was hindering Paul in his day, is also hindering us in our day. But he says 'he that hinders will hinder until what? Until he 'is taken out of the way.'

So lets look at how the Devil, or this evil spirit that we fight is going to be 'taken out of the way' at the Second coming. Rev. 21:1-2 -"And I saw an angel come down from heaven...he had a great chain...he laid hold on the dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years...and cast him into the bottomless pit...that he should deceive the nations no more..."

That is the synopsis of how 'he that hinders, called the Devil and Satan is 'taken out of the way...' He is cast into the bottomless pit so he will deceive the nations no more.

2 Thess. 2;8- "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..." There are two revealings of the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. One is when he is revealed to the believers BEFORE the second coming...as Jesus said 'When ye shall see the abomination of desolation (the man of sin) sitting in the holy place..."

When he said 'When you shall see him sitting there, the implication is that it is not a mystery to you ...you know its him...he is revealed to you. This was the first revealing of the man of sin Paul was talking about as a sign that must occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord comes, this second revealing of the man of sin is to the whole world ON  the day of the Lord WHEN he comes, as it states here:

2 Thess. 2:89 "AND THEN (at the Second Coming) shall the Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

So there is no doubt about who it is and when he will be destroyed. But what does it mean that he will be revealed 'at his coming?'

Isaiah 14 goes into some detail about Lucifer and says when he is brought down to hell, 'they that see him shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, 'Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms..."

Here the man of sin himself is revealed to the world but of course this is at the Second Coming not when he sits in the temple of God.

Blessings to you all

 

[transmogrified]

On 12/28/2021 at 2:03 PM, JoeCanada said:

If only Paul had told us. He explained it to the Thessalonians..... but here we are some 2,000 years later, and still wondering.

Hi Joe Canada- Lets look bit closer at the text and see that he not only gave the answer to the Thessalonians back then, he also gave it to us some 2000 years later. 

Paul first went over the two things that had to happen before the Day of the Lord would come...You rightly identified them as being: 

1) A falling away first, and

2) The man of sin must be revealed

So look at verse 6 again and ask yourself who the "HE" is referring to here...Here is the verse- "And now ye know what witholdeth that HE might be revealed in his time.

The reason this seems so hard to understand is that you are thinking the 'HE' here is the man of sin but it is referring to Jesus being revealed in his time, instead of the man of sin being revealed in his time.

He doesn't start talking about the man of sin until he starts talking about the mystery of iniquity in verse 7, but the context through verse 6 is all pertaining to the things that must take place before Jesus is revealed.

So instead of reading 'And now ye now what witholds that 'the man of sin' might be revealed in his time, read, "And now ye know what witholds that 'Jesus' might be revealed in his time.'

So when the issue is 'what holds Jesus from being revealed in his time? the answer is easy:

Its : 1) there has to be a falling away first, and

2) the man of sin has to be revealed....Now you know what witholds Jesus from being revealed in his time...

Blessings to you- Gary

[JoeCanada]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So instead of reading 'And now ye now what witholds that 'the man of sin' might be revealed in his time, read, "And now ye know what witholds that 'Jesus' might be revealed in his time.'

So when the issue is 'what holds Jesus from being revealed in his time? the answer is easy:

Its : 1) there has to be a falling away first, and

2) the man of sin has to be revealed....Now you know what witholds Jesus from being revealed in his time...

Hi Gary,

Well, that's an interesting take on 2 Thes 2:6.

Not sure about it. I'm going to have to do more study on it for sure. 

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

I can only repeat once again what the scripture declares...

2Thes. 2:6- And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

And now the italics, like the KJV writers did for clarification/to make it more readable/so it won't sound like broken English.

And now ye know what withholdeth, its just so that he might be revealed in his time.

TIME is withholding...it wasn't/isn't TIME yet.

I don't disagree.  Jesus said that the gospel would be preached around the world and then the end would come.  Whether that's what's meant or not, I don't know.

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, MrBear said:

I remember my first post here was about this topic but I did use the apocrypha so feel free to unpack or denounce I’m ok with that

but it’s an angel

 

Tend to agree, and more specifically, the angel in charge of the abyss.