A Better Covenant

[JustPassingThru]

19 hours ago, Neighbor said:

or  in acknowledging the gift of redemption made by Jesus.

Dear brother, ...isn't that what I said?

Lord bless

[JustPassingThru]

12 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Is that what you're asking?

No..., all I have done is repeat what God the Holy Spirit, who heard it straight from the mouth of Jesus:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death.  Rom 8: 1-2

12 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

So SIN is TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE.

Is that what you are saying, ...believing, ...teaching?

It's a historical Biblical Truth, ...the the Law of Sin and Death came "before" the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, in fact that Word goes on to tell us:

 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  Rom 8:8

What the Holy Spirit is telling us is any one that tries to "keep" the Law of Sin and Death, ...what you call the "Torah," ...they CANNOT please God, ...that's written in black and white written by the holy Spirit and personally I chose to believe God rather than man.

So then He goes on to teach us:

1. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. 

2. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Rom 8:9

So let's break that down and examine what the Holy Spirit is teaching His children in this verse;

1. We are no longer mere mortal man, we have been redeemed, Bought by the Blood of Christ, a new creation 2 Cor 5:17, ...the Holy Spirit is now living inside of us 24/7 never to leave us John 14:16, we are "in Christ" Rom 8:1, with the Righteousness of Christ imputed to our account 2 Cor 5:21, we are exonerated, never to be "judged again Col 2:14, ...Rom 8:1

2. In contrast to those that try by their flesh to do the "works" of the Torah, ...which the Holy Spirit calls the Law of Sin and Death, DO NOT have the Holy Spirit living inside of them, ...which He said ARE NOT Blood Bought children of Jesus Christ.

I don't know how the Holy Spirit could say it or make it any more clearer than that???

[BibleGuy]

4 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

No..., all I have done is repeat what God the Holy Spirit, who heard it straight from the mouth of Jesus:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death.  Rom 8: 1-2

Is that what you are saying, ...believing, ...teaching?

It's a historical Biblical Truth, ...the the Law of Sin and Death came "before" the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, in fact that Word goes on to tell us:

 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  Rom 8:8

What the Holy Spirit is telling us is any one that tries to "keep" the Law of Sin and Death, ...what you call the "Torah," ...they CANNOT please God, ...that's written in black and white written by the holy Spirit and personally I chose to believe God rather than man.

So then He goes on to teach us:

1. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. 

2. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Rom 8:9

So let's break that down and examine what the Holy Spirit is teaching His children in this verse;

1. We are no longer mere mortal man, we have been redeemed, Bought by the Blood of Christ, a new creation 2 Cor 5:17, ...the Holy Spirit is now living inside of us 24/7 never to leave us John 14:16, we are "in Christ" Rom 8:1, with the Righteousness of Christ imputed to our account 2 Cor 5:21, we are exonerated, never to be "judged again Col 2:14, ...Rom 8:1

2. In contrast to those that try by their flesh to do the "works" of the Torah, ...which the Holy Spirit calls the Law of Sin and Death, DO NOT have the Holy Spirit living inside of them, ...which He said ARE NOT Blood Bought children of Jesus Christ.

I don't know how the Holy Spirit could say it or make it any more clearer than that???

Hi there!

"No..., all I have done is repeat what God the Holy Spirit, who heard it straight from the mouth of Jesus:"

Then we agree!

I'm glad you uphold God (who requires Torah, Dt. 1:3;5:27-33).

I'm glad you uphold the Holy Spirit who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21).

I'm glad you uphold Jesus (who requires Torah, Mt. 4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death.  "

GREAT point.  We have no no condemnation in Christ (who requires Torah, Mt.5:19).

We do NOT walk after the flesh (which disobeys Torah, Rom.8:7); thus we OBEY Torah.

We walk after the Spirit (who leads us to OBEY Torah, Rom.8:7,13).

We are NOT under the law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15); rather, we are under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Rom.8:2;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47;Rom.1:5;3:27).

 

"It's a historical Biblical Truth"

And Torah is truth (Ps.119:142), and we should be sanctified by this Torah truth (Jn.17:17)...not oppose it!

 

"the the Law of Sin and Death came "before" the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus"

Sure....before we have faith, we are bound to sinful disobedience and death....agreed!

 

"any one that tries to "keep" the Law of Sin and Death, ...what you call the "Torah," ...they CANNOT please God"

That's NOT my position!

We obey the Torah of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Rom.8:2;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47;Rom.1:5;3:27),

NOT the Torah of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15).

There are TWO Torahs in Dt. 30:11-15....after all.

STOP confusing the two.

Thanks!

 

"that's written in black and white written by the holy Spirit and personally I chose to believe God rather than man."

Then believe that GOD who requires Torah! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

OBEY the testimony of the Spirit which is that you should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. "

Awesome!  The flesh DISOBEYS Torah....therefore the Spirit, by contrast, leads us to OBEY TORAH!  Agreed!

 

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Rom 8:9"

Then be SURE you have the SPIRIT who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

After all, Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20)....so let's get busy DISCIPLING Christian in Torah, as Jesus requires!

 

"So let's break that down and examine what the Holy Spirit is teaching His children in this verse;"

Agreed!  Let's uphold that Spirit who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"We are no longer mere mortal man, we have been redeemed, Bought by the Blood of Christ, a new creation 2 Cor 5:17, ...the Holy Spirit is now living inside of us 24/7 never to leave us John 14:16, we are "in Christ" Rom 8:1, with the Righteousness of Christ imputed to our account 2 Cor 5:21, we are exonerated"

Sounds good!

 

"never to be "judged again" "

Wrong.  (2Cor.5:10;Jas.2:12).

 

" In contrast to those that try by their flesh to do the "works" of the Torah,"

WRONG.  The flesh CAN NOT obey Torah (Rom.8:7)....NOBODY obeys Torah "by their flesh"....that's a SELF-CONTRADICTORY statement.

 

"which the Holy Spirit calls the Law of Sin and Death"

OOPS!  You just confused the TWO TORAHS again.....remember?

Torah #1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15)

Torah #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt. 30:11-15)

 

Now, Rom. 8:2 merely proves Paul opposes Torah #1!

That SAME PAUL requires Torah #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

STOP confusing the two Torahs.

Thanks!

 

"DO NOT have the Holy Spirit living inside of them"

Eeewww.....that's bad.  I want the SPIRIT who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"which He said ARE NOT Blood Bought children of Jesus Christ."

I'm glad Christ's blood alone (not our works) purifies us from all sin (1Jn.1:7).

By the way, that SAME JOHN also requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3).

 

"I don't know how the Holy Spirit could say it or make it any more clearer than that???"

True....the Spirit is quite clear.

Remember?

It's the SPIRIT who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

Glad to see you uphold the Spirit.

Now please be corrected by the Biblical Scriptures I've set before you....

blessings in Christ....

 

[BibleGuy]

Just now, maryjayne said:

What, exactly, is the definition of Torah being used in this thread?

Hi there!

Different people define "TORAH" differently....

I try to stick to the BIBLICAL conception of Torah as the WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1Ki.2:3).

So, Moses wrote Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

I doubt Moses originally penned Genesis.

Anyway, that's the definition I use.

Of course, TORAH is used in a few places in Scripture with a different definition (e.g., Ge. 26:5 is obviously not referring to the written Torah of Moses...because Moses was not even born yet!)

However, TORAH, in general throughout the writings of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, and routinely in the New Testament writings (translated in English typically as LAW), generally refers to this written Torah of Moses, as I've defined it.....with a few exceptions here and there, of course.....(that's the nature of language....words sometimes are used in different senses at times....)

So, TORAH passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10)....so that's a good reason for us New Covenant Christians to obey that Torah of Moses!

blessings...

 

 

[Michael37]

34 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

Different people define "TORAH" differently....

I try to stick to the BIBLICAL conception of Torah as the WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1Ki.2:3).

So, Moses wrote Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

I doubt Moses originally penned Genesis.

Anyway, that's the definition I use.

Of course, TORAH is used in a few places in Scripture with a different definition (e.g., Ge. 26:5 is obviously not referring to the written Torah of Moses...because Moses was not even born yet!)

However, TORAH, in general throughout the writings of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, and routinely in the New Testament writings (translated in English typically as LAW), generally refers to this written Torah of Moses, as I've defined it.....with a few exceptions here and there, of course.....(that's the nature of language....words sometimes are used in different senses at times....)

So, TORAH passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10)....so that's a good reason for us New Covenant Christians to obey that Torah of Moses!

blessings...

 

You mean we should ignore the Book of Hebrews?

eg. Heb 7:12
(12)  For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

[BibleGuy]

2 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

You mean we should ignore the Book of Hebrews?

eg. Heb 7:12
(12)  For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

The Melchizedek priesthood does not CHANGE the Levitical priesthood!

They BOTH exist SIMULTANEOUSLY.....

The Greek is "μετατίθημι" and may refer to a transfer.....not a CHANGE.

No Levitical law changed....Jesus comes to restore those very Levitical sacrificial laws! (Mal.3:4).

No Melchizedek law changed.....

Rather, Jesus must transfer focus upon the MELCHIZEDEK priesthood rules (not the Levitical priesthood rules)....because Jesus is NOT a Levite!

Moreover, that SAME WRITER of Hebrews tells us that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the New Covenant (citing Jer. 31:33 at Heb.8:10;10:16).

So, the writer of Hebrews OBVIOUSLY does not believe the Torah of Moses is no longer applicable to New Covenant participants.....

Agreed?

[Coliseum]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

"No..., all I have done is repeat what God the Holy Spirit, who heard it straight from the mouth of Jesus:"

Then we agree!

I'm glad you uphold God (who requires Torah, Dt. 1:3;5:27-33).

I'm glad you uphold the Holy Spirit who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21).

I'm glad you uphold Jesus (who requires Torah, Mt. 4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of sin and death.  "

GREAT point.  We have no no condemnation in Christ (who requires Torah, Mt.5:19).

We do NOT walk after the flesh (which disobeys Torah, Rom.8:7); thus we OBEY Torah.

We walk after the Spirit (who leads us to OBEY Torah, Rom.8:7,13).

We are NOT under the law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15); rather, we are under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Rom.8:2;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47;Rom.1:5;3:27).

 

"It's a historical Biblical Truth"

And Torah is truth (Ps.119:142), and we should be sanctified by this Torah truth (Jn.17:17)...not oppose it!

 

"the the Law of Sin and Death came "before" the Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus"

Sure....before we have faith, we are bound to sinful disobedience and death....agreed!

 

"any one that tries to "keep" the Law of Sin and Death, ...what you call the "Torah," ...they CANNOT please God"

That's NOT my position!

We obey the Torah of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Rom.8:2;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47;Rom.1:5;3:27),

NOT the Torah of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15).

There are TWO Torahs in Dt. 30:11-15....after all.

STOP confusing the two.

Thanks!

 

"that's written in black and white written by the holy Spirit and personally I chose to believe God rather than man."

Then believe that GOD who requires Torah! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

OBEY the testimony of the Spirit which is that you should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. "

Awesome!  The flesh DISOBEYS Torah....therefore the Spirit, by contrast, leads us to OBEY TORAH!  Agreed!

 

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Rom 8:9"

Then be SURE you have the SPIRIT who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

After all, Christ requires Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20)....so let's get busy DISCIPLING Christian in Torah, as Jesus requires!

 

"So let's break that down and examine what the Holy Spirit is teaching His children in this verse;"

Agreed!  Let's uphold that Spirit who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"We are no longer mere mortal man, we have been redeemed, Bought by the Blood of Christ, a new creation 2 Cor 5:17, ...the Holy Spirit is now living inside of us 24/7 never to leave us John 14:16, we are "in Christ" Rom 8:1, with the Righteousness of Christ imputed to our account 2 Cor 5:21, we are exonerated"

Sounds good!

 

"never to be "judged again" "

Wrong.  (2Cor.5:10;Jas.2:12).

 

" In contrast to those that try by their flesh to do the "works" of the Torah,"

WRONG.  The flesh CAN NOT obey Torah (Rom.8:7)....NOBODY obeys Torah "by their flesh"....that's a SELF-CONTRADICTORY statement.

 

"which the Holy Spirit calls the Law of Sin and Death"

OOPS!  You just confused the TWO TORAHS again.....remember?

Torah #1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15)

Torah #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt. 30:11-15)

 

Now, Rom. 8:2 merely proves Paul opposes Torah #1!

That SAME PAUL requires Torah #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

STOP confusing the two Torahs.

Thanks!

 

"DO NOT have the Holy Spirit living inside of them"

Eeewww.....that's bad.  I want the SPIRIT who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

"which He said ARE NOT Blood Bought children of Jesus Christ."

I'm glad Christ's blood alone (not our works) purifies us from all sin (1Jn.1:7).

By the way, that SAME JOHN also requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3).

 

"I don't know how the Holy Spirit could say it or make it any more clearer than that???"

True....the Spirit is quite clear.

Remember?

It's the SPIRIT who leads us to OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16)...even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21)...by putting to death the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13).

 

Glad to see you uphold the Spirit.

Now please be corrected by the Biblical Scriptures I've set before you....

blessings in Christ....

 

I am trying to understand what bothers me so much about what you say---even while you remain calm, you come across as intelligent, well-versed, and undeterred. 

Pastor Richard Wurmbrand was recalling a story about a wonderful Priest imprisoned with the others. He was always compassionate, kind, considerate, would take the tortures of others upon himself, etc. He was so good in fact that the others were asking, "If he never seems to do anything wrong, how are any of us going to make it to heaven"? But one day, an argument among them ensued, and for a brief moment the priest became angry and shouted at them. The others were startled and said, "Oh, praise God he sinned. Now perhaps some of us can enter heaven too." The priest became relatable. And this is what I do not see in you. Instead, your efforts are alone. Jesus did not convince people alone. He was relatable, and his new Covenant was convincing. You have all of the "right" words, all the right answers, but they make scarcely any impression on anyone because they are spoken alone. I do not mean to sound belittling, and if it appears so, I would ask your forgiveness. Feathers are ruffled here---not at what you say necessarily, but the way you come across as an outsider thinking he can change a whole family of believers without yet being "trusted." Can you imagine a child having to understand your long passages, or a Vietnamese farmer who is uneducated, or an infirmed man in a hospital? They would feel overwhelmed. That is kind of the feeling you leave with me, and perhaps others. No one---or perhaps very few---are even familiar with what you jumped into this forum espousing. Would it be surprising to say that many here who believe in Jesus, and who desire to live a life trusting him feel somewhat insulted? 

Please help me to understand your vision in this forum because from the many words you have spoken, I am not seeing it. 

Best to you.

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

The Melchizedek priesthood does not CHANGE the Levitical priesthood!

They BOTH exist SIMULTANEOUSLY.....

The Greek is "μετατίθημι" and may refer to a transfer.....not a CHANGE.

No Levitical law changed....Jesus comes to restore those very Levitical sacrificial laws! (Mal.3:4).

No Melchizedek law changed.....

Rather, Jesus must transfer focus upon the MELCHIZEDEK priesthood rules (not the Levitical priesthood rules)....because Jesus is NOT a Levite!

Moreover, that SAME WRITER of Hebrews tells us that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the New Covenant (citing Jer. 31:33 at Heb.8:10;10:16).

So, the writer of Hebrews OBVIOUSLY does not believe the Torah of Moses is no longer applicable to New Covenant participants.....

Agreed?

How do you reconcile your belief to this passage, especially its conclusion in boldface below?

Gal 2:15-21
(15)  We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
(16)  knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
(17)  "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
(18)  For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
(19)  For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
(20)  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
(21)  I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
 

[BibleGuy]

15 minutes ago, Coliseum said:

I am trying to understand what bothers me so much about what you say---even while you remain calm, you come across as intelligent, well-versed, and undeterred. 

Pastor Richard Wurmbrand was recalling a story about a wonderful Priest imprisoned with the others. He was always compassionate, kind, considerate, would take the tortures of others upon himself, etc. He was so good in fact that the others were asking, "If he never seems to do anything wrong, how are any of us going to make it to heaven"? But one day, an argument among them ensued, and for a brief moment the priest became angry and shouted at them. The others were startled and said, "Oh, praise God he sinned. Now perhaps some of us can enter heaven too." The priest became relatable. And this is what I do not see in you. Instead, your efforts are alone. Jesus did not convince people alone. He was relatable, and his new Covenant was convincing. You have all of the "right" words, all the right answers, but they make scarcely any impression on anyone because they are spoken alone. I do not mean to sound belittling, and if it appears so, I would ask your forgiveness. Feathers are ruffled here---not at what you say necessarily, but the way you come across as an outsider thinking he can change a whole family of believers without yet being "trusted." Can you imagine a child having to understand your long passages, or a Vietnamese farmer who is uneducated, or an infirmed man in a hospital? They would feel overwhelmed. That is kind of the feeling you leave with me, and perhaps others. No one---or perhaps very few---are even familiar with what you jumped into this forum espousing. Would it be surprising to say that many here who believe in Jesus, and who desire to live a life trusting him feel somewhat insulted? 

Please help me to understand your vision in this forum because from the many words you have spoken, I am not seeing it. 

Best to you.

Howdy Coliseum!

Thanks for friendly conversation!

"Instead, your efforts are alone."

Actually, Jesus agrees we should obey Torah (Mt.5:19)...along with THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians (Ac.21:20)...

Paul agrees (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

John agrees (1Jn.5:3).

Stephen agrees (Ac.6:10-15).

Peter even applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (1Pe.1:16).

And in the church we are built upon the foundation of the prophets (Eph.2:20)....and sure enough....the prophets uphold Torah too (e.g., Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc...)

So, I'm not alone!

I've got God, Jesus, the Spirit, Moses, the other prophets, the Psalms, Proverbs, Apostles, Epistles, Gospels, Hebrews, even Revelation, and THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers....all jointly confirming we should obey Torah......

So, I'm DEFINITELY not alone, my friend!

As they say...."God and me is a majority!"

 

"Jesus did not convince people alone. "

You mean....Jesus always spoke with a group standing next to him?  (I'm not sure what you mean....)

And Jesus did not convince some people at all (Jn.6:66).....so the effectiveness or truth of one's position is NOT properly determined by VOTE....or by POLL....or by NUMBERS of people who "properly" respond.

Jesus DID use SCRIPTURE to support his position.  Let's imitate Jesus (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

For example, Jesus upholds the PSALMS (Jn.10)...and the Psalms require Torah (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc.)....thus Jesus upholds TORAH for US (given Mt. 28:19-20) as His disciples (Lk.6:40)...

Jesus argued from the authority of TORAH (e.g., Mk.7:8-9,13) to refute the bogus hand-washing tradition of the religious leaders....so if Jesus upholds Torah...we should too (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

 

"his new Covenant was convincing"

His New Covenant was Jeremiah's New Covenant (Jer.31:31) which is given as Torah (Jer.31:33)....the Torah of Moses, of course (otherwise Jeremiah is a false prophet, given Dt. 13:1-5).

 

"but they make scarcely any impression on anyone because they are spoken alone."

Why assume the truth should be popular?  Look at how they treated Jesus!

 

" but the way you come across as an outsider thinking he can change a whole family of believers without yet being "trusted." "

I don't expect widespread approval and acceptance....

I expect resistance, skepticism, doubting, and opposition.....because you don't return an off-course ship to the correct course overnight....

It took us a good 1700 or so years to drift to our current position.....I expect several centuries, minimum, before we return to greater widespread acceptance of these Biblical truths.

 

But go ahead!  Give me the Berean test....see if my words are Biblical....if they are, accept them!

If not, correct me and I'll thank you.

 

"Can you imagine a child having to understand your long passages"

I presume you are not a child.

And if you criticize length of posts....then you just criticized God!  He inspired a VERY LARGE BIBLE for us....

:-)

 

"or a Vietnamese farmer who is uneducated"

If you're a Vietnamese farmer....then I'll try to adapt my language to better suit you....just let me know....

(but I'm thinking you're probably not a Vietnamese farmer....)

 

" That is kind of the feeling you leave with me, and perhaps others. "

Different styles appeal to different people....

If you don't like my style, that's ok!

The Body of Christ has MANY parts....I'm sure you can find someone with whom you may better "relate".

Maybe Bill Cloud would suit you better?

 

"No one---or perhaps very few---are even familiar with what you jumped into this forum espousing."

Then let's talk about it!  That's what the forum is about...let's talk and share and grow and learn and love...together.

 

"Would it be surprising to say that many here who believe in Jesus, and who desire to live a life trusting him feel somewhat insulted? "

Why would someone be insulted by a person excited about upholding Scripture?  That's an EXCITING thing!  Not insulting.....

 

"Please help me to understand your vision in this forum because from the many words you have spoken, I am not seeing it. "

I was born and raised in Christian churches, various denominations, for decades.....so I've got plenty of "church" under my belt.

But I've learned some key Biblical truths which are routinely NOT upheld in conventional Christendom....and I'd like to share those....

Why?  Because Jesus REQUIRES that we do this!

 

Here are some key concepts:

1. We Christians are Israelites.

2. Many of us have no clue we are Israelites.

3. This is a bad thing.  We should know who we are in Christ!

4. Christians should grow in obedience to Torah.

5. Many of us have no clue we should grow in obedience to Torah.

6. This is a bad thing.  We should know how we should live in Christ!

7. The great commission applies ALL Jesus' teachings to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

8. The church has generally failed to implement the DISCIPLESHIP component of the great commission in its fuller detail, as I've outlined here.

9. This is not good....we have drifted from our Biblical roots....it's time to return.....

10. Let's work together to share these important truths with others....as Scripture requires.

 

Of course, I can show all this from Scripture, if you like....

 

There's an off-the-top-of-my-head summary of the Biblical vision for us, as believers., at this critical time in history.

 

Agreed?

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

How do you reconcile your belief to this passage, especially its conclusion in boldface below?

Gal 2:15-21
(15)  We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
(16)  knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
(17)  "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
(18)  For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
(19)  For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
(20)  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
(21)  I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
 

Thanks for asking!  

I appreciate your interest....

After all, we should believe all Scripture....so thank you for upholding it.

 

"for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain"

Paul is comparing two groups in Galatians:

Group #1:  Seeks righteousness by faith (Gal.3:11)

Group #2:  Seeks righteousness by law (without faith), Gal. 2:21.

 

Paul obviously says Group #1 is good, and Group #2 is bad.

Agreed!

BUT!

Gal. 3:11 cites "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4.  And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" required by Paul?  Answer:  TORAH! (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof).

So, Gal. 3:11 proves that Group #1 refers to RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE.

whereas, Group #2 obviously refers to RIGHTEOUSNESS BY LAW WITHOUT FAITH.

CONCLUSION:  Paul (in Galatians) does not oppose ALL Torah-obedience....but he opposes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience....and he requires FAITHFUL Torah-obedience......and he OPPOSES adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision because Torah does not even require it!  Paul only requires TORAH....not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19).....remember?

 

ADDITIONAL CONFIRMATION:  We see this further confirmed in Rom.10:8, where Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the faith Paul preaches in Rom.10:8 (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Again, Paul requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Again, Paul requires all Torah (1Cor.7:19).

Again, Paul condones an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he walks "orderly according to the law" (Ac. 21)....and Paul requires that we imitate that Torah-obedient model (given 1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Again, Paul says that Torah-disobedience is bad (Rom.8:7).

Again, Paul says that he CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25).

Again, Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as Torah (Jer.31:33).

Again, Paul says the New Covenant includes Torah being kept "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Again, Paul says that even believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12); Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:16).

Again, Paul says that even believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from the covenants (Eph.2:12); and the covenants are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33). 

Again, Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16), and Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119;etc.).

And on and on and on.....

 

I hope that helps you understand Paul better....

blessings...