Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Hello. I like the symbolism of the doorposts of our heart. If we are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will protect and prepare us for the place where we really want to be .Why are many so concerned about being stuck in Tribulation? I laugh when I hear " we're not going to be here" and I'm thinking then why the heck are you a Christian? Are we not supposed to suffer persecution? 

Hi Walter.  I agree with you.  Here is a topic I posted last year about that:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/224105-the-pretrib-rapture-an-entitlement-for-the-privileged-few/

 

[OldCoot]

On 12/12/2019 at 2:33 PM, WilliamL said:

Answer: You are locked into your presumption of Daniel's 70th week being in the End Times, like so many, but have presented no conclusive evidence at all to support it.

Daniel expounded upon it in Chapter 11-12 talking about much of what Daniel 9:27 is, even saying it is the time of the end, especially Daniel 11:20 onward, tying the two together with the Abomination of Desolation that occurs at the mid point of the week in verses 30-31.  Also talking about Michael the archangel standing up which ties into Revelation 12.

Continuing along that line, this abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 and Daniel 9:27 (the 70th week) is linked to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, a clear reference to the end time and clear tying the ribbon of the 70th week.....

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (NKJV) And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 11:37 (NKJV) He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJV) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

No one did that before the temple was destroyed in 70AD.  And no one since because there has not been a temple standing since.  So the entire reference of the 70th week of Daniel 9, amplified in Daniel 11-12, and Paul showing that link in 2 Thessalonians 2, it has to be tied to a future end time period.

[OldCoot]

13 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I laugh when I hear " we're not going to be here" and I'm thinking then why the heck are you a Christian? Are we not supposed to suffer persecution? 

It is true that we will suffer persecution, but nowhere does it say we are to suffer the indignation of the Lord.   After all, anyone who is redeemed is already bought and paid for and has passed from death to life.  There is no condemnation for those in Messiah.

And the persecution and tribulation of those days, it is of the Lord.  That it it is a psychotic individual infused by Satan who is at the helm down here doesn't negate that.  The Lord has used despots in the past to bring forth His judgements and wrath.  Sargon of Assyria and Nebechudnezzar of Babylon come to mind.

Many early church writers, some of who knew the Apostles personally, claim a removal of the righteous that will occur before the tribulation that comes upon those who are on the earth.   Irenaeus who personally knew the Apostle John clearly stated that in his treatise "Against Heresies"

While not a canonical text, the Book of Enoch is quoted in the NT so it is a credible text to glean little nuggets from.  It says that the removal or "rapture" will occur before the tribulation of the end time.  And it even gives the reason why.... to be a warning sign to those on the earth to cause many to repent.  (Ancient Book of Enoch 50:1-2) And a copy of Enoch was discovered in the Qumran Scrolls dating to around 150-100 BC.  So it was not influenced by Christian thought on the issue.

As far as suffering persecution, one of the signs that some of the early church writers wrote about was the increase of persecution of Christians by other Christians that will immediately precede the end time tribulation.    Just going thru many threads on this forum, especially those dealign with eschatology, and seeing the level of attacks some folks who claim to be Christian level against others, those early church writers may be right.

Edited December 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

11 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

old coot, I think if we saw one major figure rise up and do all these horrible things then everyone could point to him and say Yep this is the time get ready. But that day is going to be a big surprise no one will be able to track it down. I truly believe that God will give His children confirmation in their spirit that it's about to happen .

Perhaps Antichrist is the "spirit of" that will work in many unsaved people and groups when they come up against True Believers in this proverbial Gog and Magog(Rev20:8).

" and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, where of you have heard that it should come ;and even now already is in the world" 1Jn4:3

I really do think it's a mistake to be looking for a particular person when his spirit in  others is a pretty destructive force to deal with right now.

 

It is a spirit of antichrist, that is no doubt that has been at work since before the ink was dry on the NT.   But given that the scripture talks about a real individual in both OT and NT with a long string of various titles, I would tend to doubt that the "antichrist" is just a force, spirit, whatever.  

And the trigger of when this  guy is revealed  is when he affirms the covenant with Daniel's people.... the  Hebrews.  Given the turmoil in Israel,  there are many there that have stated they would make a pact with the devil if it guaranteed peace and  safety.  And they  weren't being facetious about it either.

And according to Daniel and Revelation, it is a pact that "guarantees" their safety.  But is will be deception and will be broken.

[WilliamL]

On 12/14/2019 at 8:20 AM, OldCoot said:

On 12/12/2019 at 1:33 PM, WilliamL said:

Answer: You are locked into your presumption of Daniel's 70th week being in the End Times, like so many, but have presented no conclusive evidence at all to support it.

Daniel expounded upon it in Chapter 11-12 talking about much of what Daniel 9:27 is, even saying it is the time of the end, especially Daniel 11:20 onward, tying the two together with the Abomination of Desolation that occurs at the mid point of the week in verses 30-31.  Also talking about Michael the archangel standing up which ties into Revelation 12.

Anyone who has studied the history of the kings of Daniel 11 will tell you that Daniel 11:21-31f. is the account of Antiochus Epiphanes reign (176-64 BC), who desecrated the Temple in 168 BC. The "ships of Chittim" were Roman ships, who drove Antiochus out of Egypt.

If you are not acquainted with these simple facts, you are not at all prepared to deal with the prophecies of the Book of Daniel.

Anyone interested to learn this history can find a three-part series beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1411-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-1-the-history/

 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Anyone who has studied the history of the kings of Daniel 11 will tell you that Daniel 11:21-31f. is the account of Antiochus Epiphanes reign (176-64 BC), who desecrated the Temple in 168 BC. The "ships of Chittim" were Roman ships, who drove Antiochus out of Egypt.

If you are not acquainted with these simple facts, you are not at all prepared to deal with the prophecies of the Book of Daniel.

Anyone interested to learn this history can find a three-part series beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1411-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-1-the-history/

 

Some of Daniel 11, but from verse 36 onward into Daniel 12, it takes some real scripture gymnastics to not equate it with the antichrist character.    While there was an abomination of desolation done by Antiochus, that event has a dual fulfillment per Yeshua (Matthew 24:15)

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (NKJV ) And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 11:36-37 (NKJV) Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Matthew 24:15-16 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Seems pretty tight to me.  One  can fit Antiochus into  Daniel 11 up to a  point, but  then the  text is  clearly referring to the end times.  And it  ties into Daniel's 70th week along with what Yeshua and Paul were referring to.  

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/14/2019 at 8:20 AM, OldCoot said:

Daniel expounded upon it in Chapter 11-12 talking about much of what Daniel 9:27 is, even saying it is the time of the end, especially Daniel 11:20 onward, tying the two together with the Abomination of Desolation that occurs at the mid point of the week in verses 30-31.

8 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

While there was an abomination of desolation done by Antiochus, that event has a dual fulfillment per Yeshua (Matthew 24:15)

 

So you changed your original view, good to see. However, while the AD by Antiochus was certainly a type of the End Time AD of Matt. 24:15, it was no more than that. There will also be difference between them:

Dan. 11:29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former [invasion of Egypt by Antiochus in 170 AD] or the latter [End Time invasion of Egypt per Daniel 11:42].

The AD prophesied by Jesus speaks only of the AD of Daniel 12:11, period, and not about the time of Antiochus. You, like so many others, conflate too many scriptures together that speak of entirely different times, events, and participants, and thereby come away with a muddled misunderstanding of End Time events.

[OldCoot]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

 

So you changed your original view, good to see. However, while the AD by Antiochus was certainly a type of the End Time AD of Matt. 24:15, it was no more than that. There will also be difference between them:

Dan. 11:29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former [invasion of Egypt by Antiochus in 170 AD] or the latter [End Time invasion of Egypt per Daniel 11:42].

The AD prophesied by Jesus speaks only of the AD of Daniel 12:11, period, and not about the time of Antiochus. You, like so many others, conflate too many scriptures together that speak of entirely different times, events, and participants, and thereby come away with a muddled misunderstanding of End Time events.

Well, I didn't change my mind.  In my original post referring to this issue, I said literally.... Daniel 11 into Daniel 12.  You just took the  opportunity to haggle over a specific piece of Daniel 11.   That there is a dual reference is pretty  clear.  Many prophecies have dual fulfillments.  But it is abundantly  clear, Daniel 11 into Daniel 12 is talking of the end, and it ties into the 70th Week in Daniel 9:27 as expounded upon by Yeshua and Paul.

[iamlamad]

On 12/19/2019 at 3:57 PM, OldCoot said:

Well, I didn't change my mind.  In my original post referring to this issue, I said literally.... Daniel 11 into Daniel 12.  You just took the  opportunity to haggle over a specific piece of Daniel 11.   That there is a dual reference is pretty  clear.  Many prophecies have dual fulfillments.  But it is abundantly  clear, Daniel 11 into Daniel 12 is talking of the end, and it ties into the 70th Week in Daniel 9:27 as expounded upon by Yeshua and Paul.

Old Coot has it right here, WilliamL! It would do you well to read and believe!

[Diaste]

On 11/24/2019 at 7:11 PM, JustPassingThru said:

Interesting viewpoint, ...may I ask a question, ...please understand, ...I'm NOT attacking you, ...I'll say it again to reiterate my point, ...I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU, ...okay, ...got it?

Did you bruise, beat up, maim "your" bride before you married her?

I don' t believe you did, ...I think you loved her, cherished her, went out of your way to please her,

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church (His Bride), and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

Here's the question, why would you think, since Jesus gave us this admonition to love our brides, ...why would He bruise, beat up, maim His Bride before He marries her?

I know this is an old comment but I just have to bring up a couple things.

Are any who die today in Christ taken in the 'rapture'?

If so, then those killed by ISIS would be taken as well.

Why is it okay for them to suffer and die, but not whatever is defined as the 'church'?

Jesus suffered and died. Did His Father do that to Him?

Why do you blame Jesus for "bruise, beat up, maim "?