The powerlessness of Grace when mixed with the Law

[Tigger56]

It is amazing to me that so many are so quick to define the law of the Almighty God and our Lord Jesus as being something that was created by mistake or is evil. Yet the same group will look upon those who curse, those who work on Sunday, those who steal or kill as being anything but Christian. The law of God was not a mistake. It is holy and it is truth. Many who deny the law, still define your walk as a Christian by accepting Christ which is number one as there is no salvation without Him, but you will also agree that we should act and behave in a "christian manner". That manner is defined by the law and by the root of the law which is love. The Lord God and The Lord Jesus show that love and the law are united. Why would the Lord Jesus state, that if you love me you will keep my commandments? Because walking the path of obedience is a path of love. To love our neighbor is a fulfilling of the law. Fulfilling doesn't mean abolishing. Love of God and love of others is clearly defined in the behavior set forth in the ten commandments.

Though most deny it, I am correct in saying that the biggest argument most mainstream Christians have against the law is based on Commandment number 4, to keep the Sabbath holy. Please note that it states to "keep" it holy. Why is that? Because only God can establish something as holy. He created heaven and earth and all that is upon in and rested the seventh day and made it holy. The pharisees at the time of Christ had filled the day with many rules and traditions which the Lord showed was in error, but he never showed that the Sabbath was a mistake. Our Lord walked a sinless life not so we could walk a sinful live but so that when we fail we can be forgiven, redeemed and restored to once again walk in obedience before them. This isn't an effort of flesh it is rather walking in spirit and not the flesh. The ways of flesh are the ways of disobedience. The path of light is found in loving our Lord first and most and by showing that love unto God and unto our fellow man. How do we love?  Isn't it truly defined by the words of our Lord? Isn't it defined by His example? Our Lord Jesus kept the law, he kept the Sabbath as did his Apostles. Look at Luke 4:16, the Lord went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day.

So many misquote Paul without looking at his example. Look at Acts 13:15, Acts 13:42, 43, 44, Acts 17:1, Acts 18:4, and then in Acts 18:5 you see Paul meeting on the Sabbath and continued for a year and six months and amazingly enough not once does it show him getting up and telling the people that God made a mistake! to quit keeping the Sabbath! Instead he met with them on the Sabbath. 

I wish all would at least admit that the biggest problem you have with the law of our God is the Sabbath. A day that has been rejected by most of the mainstream Christians though there is proof in Christian history that many continued to observe the Sabbath including Jesus and the Apostles. Many deny that the pope has the power to change the law of God yet many unknowing accept the Catholic Church by observing Sunday over the Sabbath. Show me one place in the Bible where God made Sunday holy.

I know I will now receive much condemnation and argument. But wouldn't just one of you admit that it is the fourth commandment that makes you declare all law is abolished. I know it is too much to expect. I will now await the usual misunderstanding of Paul's writings and will await the ignoring of the fact of history and the fact that Jesus and the Apostles kept the Sabbath.  

Oh if only one of you could tell me that when God makes something Holy, what gives man the right to abolish it, for I know the Lord never did. Can you show me one scripture when God makes Sunday holy. If you can't show that one thing, then why don't we keep the Sabbath. 

If my words, I do want you to understand that I do realize that all of you are sincere and that you Love Christ. I realize that you also adamantly believe you are right. But sincerity does not always equal right and sincerity, though well meaning, does not make truth.

[Willa]

13 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

Did I infer otherwise?

No.  But I do treasure God's word.  Through that I learn about God's attributes and become so much more acquainted with Him.  Without the word I drew near to Him through nature.  Through the word I came to know Him through the life of Christ's example and teaching.  Even more than the way God dealt with Israel in the prophets and even in the law but to a lesser degree.  

[Heybro]

Well said Tigger, I appreciate the thought and effort you put into this post, God bless.

[Willa]

4 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

I was a denier and an atheist when God spared my life, @Willa. I wasn't raised hearing about the Lord like you and others here at Worthy were but I learned all about misery, suffering, and what it means to long for death over the years. We have our Lord Jesus Christ in common but don't presume that I don't love God's words. I share them frequently on the forum. 

I am so sorry you took my statement as criticism or a challenge.  It is meant to be a testimony. All I was trying to do is to express my thanksgiving and love for God's word through which we can know God more completely.  We don't know about God's grace and the cross if we only know Him through nature as I had.  It is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us and draws us to the word.

 I was raised in the home of an agnostic married to a Christian who was not allowed to speak much about the Lord.  I went to Sunday School in a church that was very liberal.  We learned Bible stories but not Jesus' words.  The most doctrine I heard was Jesus Loves Me. I was also an agnostic because after my grandfather had died when I was 4, I told my class that Jesus could not have arisen from the dead. In the 4th grade I snickered when the teacher couldn't get the flannel board sheep to stay in the arms of David so he stuck it on the kid's head.  I laughed.  He scolded me and asked what I thought was funny. I said it looked stupid on his head.  He said I didn't need to be there;  I was hurt so I stopped going.  So don't assume that just because we went to church as a kid that we knew the Gospel.  Peter only understood that Jesus was the Christ when the Father revealed it to him, and we are the same way.  God has to open our ears and eyes to the truth just like Jesus did on the road to Emmaus. 

 My life also had some misery, loneliness, and abuse from neighbors and cousins yet probably not as bad as yours.  But God began to draw me to Himself when I was 12 until I repented and asked Him to forgive me, and then read a new testament .  I also argued with pastors and with God till I was 25 and didn't surrender to Him as Lord till then.  

 

[Willa]

I again apologize.  I can understand why you are upset.  But it was in no way meant as a rebuke. or an affront.

 To me, both are true:  It is definitely Jesus who saves.  But adding to that I am so very thankful for God's word.  I had not made any assumptions about you, but you seem to have made some about me.  That is OK by me.  When explaining about myself I hoped that we might gain more understanding about each other.  I am trying to be a friend and I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for you.  

Blessings,

Willa

[Justin Adams]

The OP title is misleading. It assumes too much. The modern church seems to speak against the law in ignorance of the meaning and purpose of 'the law'.  As Yeshua said, 'is it not written in your law...?' And 'scripture cannot be broken...'  

First, take a close look at 'the law' because the whole of the Tanakh was referred to as 'the law', or 'the law and the prophets'.  The apostles taught from the Tanakh (the law) and so should we. Without the commentaries of the apostles' writings, we would not understand the law and the prophets.

Grace gave us EVERYTHING, and there is no distinction between Grace and The Law unless you want to split doctrinal hairs...  Doing this just confuses everyone. It is a 'cat among the pigeons' type of thing and really accomplishes very little. It can never be Grace VS Law since both are authored by God's and His Goodness.

[Alive]

The Law is good and holy and instructs us in what pleases and displeases our God. It provides an 'analog' metric for a baseline of morality and living among others. This can't be and is never disputed.

For the born again believer who has had the law written on his heart, it becomes a matter of emphasis. What we sometimes miss is what Paul teaches regarding the 'principles' of LAW and LIFE and how they are juxtaposed against each other. This is a real thing and vital for a son of God to understand.

Rom. 8:2 For ^athe law of the Spirit of life ¹in ^bChrist Jesus ^chas set you free from the law of sin and of death. ³ For ^awhat the Law could not do, ^1bweak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in ^cthe likeness of ²sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the ^arequirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who ^bdo not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If we read through Romans 7 and 8 we find Paul teaching something of these two principles and just how the law functions experientially to make obvious the 'sin in the flesh' and how 'conversion' sets us free from that bondage. The law is holy and good, but it serves to function in that it makes obvious the sinful nature within.

This is what is meant when the word teaches us that the law is a 'tutor' to lead us to Christ.

Jesus Himself put a spotlight on this in His discourse with one of the scribes who asked Him about the greatest commandment.

Mark 12:28   One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” ²⁹ Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; ³⁰ AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ ³¹ “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Bear with me for a moment. The Lord put this in my mind while seeking sleep last night and I am not as sharp a tack as I once was. The Lord knows.

Remember Jesus came to 'fulfill' the Law.

When Jesus replied thus to the scribe, He was raising the bar. Jesus knew full well that men can't do this all the time, if ever. The bar is too high for even Jesse Owens to leap over. Jesus was literally --at that moment---being the tutor that leads to Himself. Think about that for a minute. Jesus, who was fulfilling the law was pointing to the solution (Himself) that would later be taught by the Apostles. Nobody understood this at this time. He taught the disciples those things after His resurrection and after the Pentecost event. He wasn't saying and never did Teach that the Law was abolished---only that it was to be 'fulfilled' and later expressed from within--with the power of a New Life and a heart of flesh by the Church, His Body. The power of the law of the sprit of Life in Christ Jesus that would set us free from the law of sin and death. The emphasis is on a New Life--on Christ within to fulfill the law.

May the Lord make this clear to us.

[JustPassingThru]

On 2/4/2020 at 4:34 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, but I I meant that it is that people  will rest in the such that some wiil say:

"I have it made, I can be lazy at work and steal from my employer, cheat on my taxes, speed in my car, watch porn and hate my neighbor, etc.  and know that I am saved by grace. Gee, thanks God! "

Rest (and grace) does not mean we avoid good works, and are free to sin.

Any born again child of God "may" say that as a babe in Christ, ...just like a new born baby will dirty their diapers, because they can't control their body functions until they are "taught" not to, ...it all depends on how much of the Word is "in" them, ...which today is the #1 problem in the church, ..the lack of expositional teaching of the Word of God.

When I was born again on a Wednesday night, ...first thing Thursday morning the Holy Spirit convicted me of making restitution.

Years before that day I was a construction super of a 38 home housing tract, the plumbers on the job site were my friends, ...they were working for an out-of-town company, ...when they finished they sent all of the companies tools back to them, ...however I found one extension cord they had missed, ...I told them about it and they told me to keep it, ...which I did.

That Thursday morning the Holy Spirit told me to "make" restitution, ...first thing I did was buy a new cord, write a letter to the owner explaining why I was sending him his cord, explaining the details of how I obtained it and now I was a born again child of God and was returning his property to him, put it in with the cord and mailed it, ...all before I did any thing else that morning.

For the past 15 years I have been employed by the most wealthy family on the island as their maintenance man for their 78 apartment complex, two stores and seven homes, ...for the last three years we have been remodeling the apartments because they are 50 years old, ...and I'm building the kitchen cabinets for them too.

Since that first Thursday morning, ...if I even "think" of taking just one of their screws, or just a little of their paint, or use a scrape of their wood, or not work the full 8 hours a day, ...the Holy Spirit convicts me of wrong doing, ...I have been "trained" by Him that now I don't even "entertain" those thoughts.

How has that been observed in the eyes of my employers, ...they absolutely trust me with their money, ...there are days I spend as much as $3,000-$4,000 without ever telling them in advance, ...they have a very large warehouse to store their merchandise (aluminium boats, outboard motors, trailers), I have a key so that I can use the fork lift inside, ...there have been two times they found thousands and thousands of dollars worth of merchandise missing, ...they called everyone that had a key to the warehouse to the office, ...except me, ...both times, before they revealed who the real thief was, ...I was accused by  him because I was not in attendance, ...my employers response, ...we have total confidence in him, he will never steal from us and then the thief was exposed and fired. 

I'm not writing to to brag or say I'm a super saint, ...my purpose is to "show," ...by a "personal" experience with the Almighty, Living God, ...the Holy Spirit living inside of us will "keep" us holy and blameless as we "grow" in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our growth in our spiritual walk with our Lord is exactly like that of a baby, ...there comes a time when the baby is uncomfortable with their dirty diaper and they learn to stop dirtying it themselves, ...it all depends on how much we are "in" the Word allowing the Holy Spirit to guide and direct our lives.

Lord bless

 

[JustPassingThru]

On 2/4/2020 at 4:37 AM, Tigger56 said:

I do walk a path of righteousness before the Lord and I am his Servant. I follow the obedience of love and the love of obedience. The Lord Jesus is my God and my Savior. He is the author and finisher of my faith and I seek to please Him at all times. If I fail in my obedience I know that all I have to do is take a step toward Him and He will run to me. His grace is ever unto me and I know I am precious in his sight. So, yes I keep the law to the fullest measure I can each and every day. 

The only "thing" I do is "reckon" myself dead, ...crucified with Christ, ...it's the Holy Spirit inside of me, ruling, reigning, guiding and direction my life, ...I must decrease so that He may increase in my life...

 

On 2/4/2020 at 4:37 AM, Tigger56 said:

Which measure of the law do you feel we shouldn't keep and which law as I posted before is that we are to ignore?

Jesus "accomplished" the Law, ...why should He continue keeping it?

After you have accomplished the payment of your electric bill, do you still keep paying it?

Since I'm "resting" in Jesus positionally at this very moment, ...ans since He has accomplished the Law for me...

...what part of the Law you have posted are you suggesting Jesus should be keeping today?

[Resurrection Priest]

20 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

We should be taught it, to learn the Grace and Love of God, and the history of His people, and appreciate the fullness of prophecy and the foreshadowing of Christ from the beginning of time itself. To see what a wonderful gift Jesus gave us in releasing us from the burden of the law, giving us a direct relationship with God again and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for us as individuals. The law is to be respected and learnt.

However, being taught the law, and knowing it does not mean we also have to still observe it, or are bound by it. Jesus death set us free.

Which of the commandments do you believe we no longer "have to still observe"? 

I agree that "the priesthood" is "changed" under the New Covenant - to the Melchizedek order of "the firstborn" wherein Jesus is High Priest.  With that "change" of "the priesthood" came the END of animal sacrifices. 

I don't see any other specifically named changes.  None of the Ten Commandments were changed.  They are "written" on our hearts by HIS Spirit.  THAT is the New Covenant promise.  Of course, that "writing" won't be perfectly completed until we are in the Kingdom.  That's the context of Ezekiel 36:24-27. 

I call it "cheap grace" when someone denies the need to respond to the conviction of GOD's Spirit, with the changed behavior HE calls for.  It's like saying the LORD does not expect us to change, even after HE gives us the power to do so.  The "grace FOR obedience".

Romans 1:5 "Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience "