Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The prince of Persia was Apollyon, he then was over Greece, and Rome before God locked him in the pit. 

Based on what?  From Daniel 10:

• Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.  Daniel 10:20

If Apollyon is the prince of Persia and is also the prince of Greece then that verse doesn't make any sense.

[choir loft]

On 2/21/2020 at 4:59 AM, Diaste said:

That assumes you are inherently correct and I am inherently wrong. While I appreciate your position that does not make for a strong proposition. Not sure anyone one person has exclusive rights to intellectual high ground nor can be the ultimate authority on any subject, method, exegesis or interpretation. 

I don't care if 1000 scholars wrote 10,000 books, that in no way guarantees truth or accuracy.

Good point that I am "uninformed with regard to accepted scholarly method and interpretation".  I will continue in that vein. Appeals to authority fall on deaf ears with me, you'll have to do better than that.

We do agree on Darby. 

No idea when or how I did this, "Your attack upon me, saying I was lying about the events of the head injury and healing of the beast" Perhaps you could present the quotes? I'm not sure I was addressing you directly or that you just jumped into the fray. Perhaps you are assuming and accusing? I happy you have a problem with what I say. Let's set emotions aside and dig in to the issue.

Your retort that you doubt the efficacy of scholars isn't unusual.  Most Christians today prefer to stand on the ground of Biblical illiteracy to defend an illogical and uninformed opinion.

Question:  If you doubt the studied opinion of those who've delved deeper into history culture and Biblical narrative than you, then what criteria do you use to justify your own subjective, albeit uninformed attitude?  

Do YOU study the Bible?  

Do you know how to do so?  

Do you read it from time to time or do you rely upon religious slogans and buzz words (as the majority of intellectually lazy Christians prefer to do)?  [*]

Again, I'm not accusing you personally.  Your words are consistent with many Christians who don't have a clue what they're talking about, but they're absolutely certain of it nonetheless.

Do you see a person who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him. - Proverbs 23:12

Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. - Proverbs 15:22

According to the Bible, inspired by God, one's own opinion is a dry well.  It is foolish to rely upon it.  According to the Bible, inspired by God, an appeal to many experts is a good idea.

In the American church everyone is wise in his own eyes.  That's why Christians are regarded as a pack of fools these days.  None will take good teaching to heart and few walk in wisdom.  

The foundations of the church rest upon sand. (Matt 7:24-27)  The rest of the structure has corrupted itself and is rotten to its bones.  It's like a shredded flag whipped by storm winds that will soon blow away what remains of its recognizable design.

Set emotions aside and dig into the issues?  You've already testified you don't accept what is 'dug up'.  

I have already provided evidence for my statement of the fatal head wound to the beast and its miraculous recovery.  What additional documentation do you require?  

Your attitude suggests you only want to argue.  

You aren't interested in facts figures or logical conclusions at all.  To that end I can only advise you to do your own homework - or not - as the case may be.  Most folks who go about in denial of scholarly opinion do so because they despise truth. (John 3:19)

I'm glad we agree on Darby.   That's a good thing.  Few would agree with either of us on that point.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[*] Reliance upon religious slogans and buzz words are fine for greeting cards and poor back-woods preachers who want to make a living in the god-business, but it's extremely DANGEROUS with regard to cohesion of the gospel message.  It's impossible to defend Christianity against encroachment of heretical religious systems like Islam when buzz words and slogans can so easily be adapted by them so as to attack the gospel. I have also studied Islam and was shocked recently when I sat in a Baptist congregation and listened to the sermon of a substitute preacher who quoted Muslim principles to support his theme.  Members of the congregation sat in their seats and bobbed their heads - ignorant of the fact the man had succeeded in subverting the gospel in their hearing.

Stupidity is not a virtue.

Edited February 23, 2020 by choir loft

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I know there are THREE to answer.....I have to do these long ones when I have time because I don't like answering without reading the replies, its a mutual respect thing with me. If I reply I must read and put forth a detailed reply. So its INCOMING in the next day or so. I just been busy, lots of honey do lists going on. 

Shalom, Revelation Man.

No problem. Take your time. I know what you mean.

[The Light]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:47 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

1 Thess 4 is the description of the 2nd coming akin to Matt 24; 1 Cor 15 is the description of the transmutation of mankind from mortality to immortality. No mention of angels here. First Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are two witnesses to the same event, different vantage points. One an general experience, the other a personal individual experience which each member will take part. Second Thess 2 is yet another set of details into the same event. If not then we will have at least 3 comings of the Lord. Such a thing is not even implied in the whole of scripture.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

I believe that the coming in 1 Thes 4 will be like the days of Noah. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The Lord Himself will come. It will be a secret rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. It is the early summer harvest.

Song of Solomon 2

⁸ The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

⁹ My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

¹⁰ My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

¹¹ For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

¹² The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

I believe the next coming that He will send his angels. This will be the promise that He keeps to the twelve tribes. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. It will occur at the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It is fall fruit harvest. It is the gathering that we see in Matt 24 and Rev 6 and Rev 14. This occurs before the wrath of God.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

²⁰ And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So I believe there are 3 comings of the Lord, the pretrib rapture of the Church, the prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth and the second coming when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth. There is a reason that Jesus says be ready because in a hour that we think not, the Son of Man commeth. There is a reason that others are told that that day won't take them unaware.

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Just a code word? A detailed description in Rev 18 and labeled a city a dozen times is code?

The Book of Revelation is one GIANT CODE book that must be decoded mostly with the Old Testament. If you read the Old Testament then you will know God says Babylon will never be an inhabited city again. So it has to be a code word. God can't lie. Revelation 18 is a detailed chapter of PROSE about the Whole World being Judged. Rev. 17 is the Harlot (ALL FALSE RELIGIONS) that co-mingled with the Government Beasts down through the ages. Rev. 17 is a "SNAP-SHOT" or PICTURE of the Worlds Judgment under the guise of the Babylon the Great moniker. John/Jesus could not say the World is going to be DESTROYED/Burned etc. because Rome would have seen that as Sedition !! So Babylon was inserted, Rome would have confiscated those papers that stated the World was going to be Destroyed, but when they saw, Babylon the Great is going to be Destroyed, they laughed and said, what dunces, Babylon is a dead city. Rev. 18 is VERY CLEAR, its the Judgments of God come against the whole world, just as Rev. 16 says in the 6th Vial, ALL the Kings of the Whole World are GATHERED to fight against God, Jesus defeats them at Armageddon {Rev. 16:19} and God calls them Babylon the Great. Now let me demonstrate Rev. 18 and how it starts with the First Seals being opened.

What events start the Worlds Judgments ? If I am right {and I am} then they should be mentioned right here in verses 1-4. LETS SEE.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

{{{ So, the 6th Seal ANNOUNCES God's Wrath, but all the Seals are opened within minutes of each other. The Anti-Christ is LOOSED to go Forth Conquering, killing etc. etc. for a 42 month period. Is a FUTURISTIC JUDGMENT, whereas the 6th Seal on is a line up of coming events that come and go in order. The first 5 Seals and all the rest of God's Plagues therefore must needs crossover each other. 

Notice, Babylon is Fallen means Satan has been cast down to earth {6th Seal} and thus Babylon {World} has become a habitation of devils. both Satan and his Demons AND Apollyon and his Bottomless Pit hordes are now on earth, or in Apollyon's case he will be at the 1st Woe. In verses 3 and 4 we see the Kings of the earth committed fornication {they took the RICHES over following God's Ways} with her, thus God tells Israel {the Jews who flee Judea or the 144,000} to come out of her {Babylon/WORLD} so that they partake not in her sins and thus receive not of her Plagues !! That is why the 7th Seal is HELD UP, until the 144,000 make it to Petra {Rev. ch. 7}. So we see TWO SIGNS that Babylon is about THE WORLD in the first four verses.

The rest of the chapter is about how THE MERCHANTS are SICK of what is going on on earth, its burning and being destroyed, verse 8 says her judgment comes in ONE DAY, and thus the DOTL is her destruction, and the DOTL last 3.5 years. Verse 10 says she is DESTROYED in ONE HOUR and we know via Rev. 17:12 that ONE HOUR also = 42 months, because the Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast, who rules for 42 months. 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Just a code word? A detailed description in Rev 18 and labeled a city a dozen times is code?

You totally missed THE POINT........Look for the Patterns not the TIMING. All the Patterns show the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened in Rev. 4 and 5 and even in Rev 7 after the Seals are opened. Then we see them in Rev. 19 coming back with Jesus while the Beast is still ruling earth. The Jewish Wedding Pattern, the 70th week Prophecy.....and so much more, all fit THE PATTERNS of an end time ONE WEEK in which the Jews are the focus of God and the Gentile Churches time has been FULFILLED. 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is that right? I don't see anywhere in the Gospels or Epistles where we are told to look to the past to get a handle on the future. In reality this epistemology is refuted by Jesus and Paul, notably;

"Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”" In context it's about following the Lord but still holding on to the former life; which I see as analogous to looking back at the feasts to interpret eschatological matters. 

Maybe there is a reason you can't see it....

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Based on what?  From Daniel 10:

• Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.  Daniel 10:20

If Apollyon is the prince of Persia and is also the prince of Greece then that verse doesn't make any sense.

Yes it does, Apollyon was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, his job was to DESTROY Israel, hes the Destroyer to them. God ordered him via Micheal to allow Alexander the Great to become THE POWER in the region, but Apollyon RESISTED Micheal for 21 days. That doesn't mean he stopped being a Principality/power in the region, it just meant that God mandated Greece to become the earthly power in that region. No doubt Satan knew the Scriptures of Daniel and tried to make God's Prophetic Word null and void by resisting God's orders. 

Once Alexander the Great won, Apollyon was STILL the Demon in control of the Mediterranean Sea Region. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes it does, Apollyon was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, his job was to DESTROY Israel, hes the Destroyer to them. God ordered him via Micheal to allow Alexander the Great to become THE POWER in the region, but Apollyon RESISTED Micheal for 21 days. That doesn't mean he stopped being a Principality/power in the region, it just meat that God mandated Greece to become the earthly power. No doubt Satan knew the Scriptures of Daniel and tried to make God's Prophetic Word null and void by resisting God's orders. 

Once Alexander the Great won, Apollyon was STILL the Demon in control of the Mediterranean Sea Region. 

What is all that based on?

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes it does, Apollyon was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, his job was to DESTROY Israel, hes the Destroyer to them. God ordered him via Micheal to allow Alexander the Great to become THE POWER in the region, but Apollyon RESISTED Micheal for 21 days. That doesn't mean he stopped being a Principality/power in the region, it just meat that God mandated Greece to become the earthly power. No doubt Satan knew the Scriptures of Daniel and tried to make God's Prophetic Word null and void by resisting God's orders. 

Once Alexander the Great won, Apollyon was STILL the Demon in control of the Mediterranean Sea Region. 

Hi Revelation Man

Where do you find that Apollyon was placed over the Mediterranean area by Satan?

I think Apollyon is Tammuz/Horus the reincarnation of Nimrod. The false Christ. The Antichrist.

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

Hi Revelation Man

Where do you find that Apollyon was placed over the Mediterranean area by Satan?

I think Apollyon is Tammuz/Horus the reincarnation of Nimrod. The false Christ. The Antichrist.

 

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

What is all that based on?

All the Nimrod, Tammuz/Horus stuff was pushed in the 1800's by Alexander Hislop. You will have to look into it to see what I am referring to. 

In Rev. 11 we see that the Beast from the Bottomless Pit ARISES and kills the Two-witnesses. In Rev. 12 we see that the Dragon {Satan} is DESIGNATED by the 7 CROWNS on the 7 Heads as the Beast power. Satan is over every governmental Kingdom in this world, as Luke 4 says. In Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ is DESIGNATED as that Beast via the 10 CROWNS on the 10 Kings. In Rev. 17 we get another DESIGNATION, but the Scarlet Colored Beast that ARISES from the bottomless pit has NO CROWNS, thus hes not over Kings from this world physically like the Anti-Christ is nor is he over Satan, thus he has NO CROWNS, but he is a principality or power over the Mediterranean Sea Region, else he wouldn't be cited as a BEAST in Rev. 17 via the Seven Heads. He is the BEAST that Was (over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome which WAS at the time} IS NOT in that he was placed in the pit by God during the Church Age................YET HE IS in that he will eventually be allowed to go back to earth during the 70th week. He thus is OF THE 7................Counting the Coming Anti-Christ, but is an 8th King because hes the King of the Bottomless Pit. Hes not an 8th earthly Kingdom, that is why there are only 7 Heads, hes OF THE SEVEN..........And is an 8th. God loves His riddles, we have to figure them out, SMILE. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, choir loft said:

Your retort that you doubt the efficacy of scholars isn't unusual.  Most Christians today prefer to stand on the ground of Biblical illiteracy to defend an illogical and uninformed opinion.

Question:  If you doubt the studied opinion of those who've delved deeper into history culture and Biblical narrative than you, then what criteria do you use to justify your own subjective, albeit uninformed attitude?  

Do YOU study the Bible?  

Do you know how to do so?  

Do you read it from time to time or do you rely upon religious slogans and buzz words (as the majority of intellectually lazy Christians prefer to do)?  [*]

Again, I'm not accusing you personally.  Your words are consistent with many Christians who don't have a clue what they're talking about, but they're absolutely certain of it nonetheless.

Do you see a person who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him. - Proverbs 23:12

Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. - Proverbs 15:22

According to the Bible, inspired by God, one's own opinion is a dry well.  It is foolish to rely upon it.  According to the Bible, inspired by God, an appeal to many experts is a good idea.

In the American church everyone is wise in his own eyes.  That's why Christians are regarded as a pack of fools these days.  None will take good teaching to heart and few walk in wisdom.  

The foundations of the church rest upon sand. (Matt 7:24-27)  The rest of the structure has corrupted itself and is rotten to its bones.  It's like a shredded flag whipped by storm winds that will soon blow away what remains of its recognizable design.

Set emotions aside and dig into the issues?  You've already testified you don't accept what is 'dug up'.  

I have already provided evidence for my statement of the fatal head wound to the beast and its miraculous recovery.  What additional documentation do you require?  

Your attitude suggests you only want to argue.  

You aren't interested in facts figures or logical conclusions at all.  To that end I can only advise you to do your own homework - or not - as the case may be.  Most folks who go about in denial of scholarly opinion do so because they despise truth. (John 3:19)

I'm glad we agree on Darby.   That's a good thing.  Few would agree with either of us on that point.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[*] Reliance upon religious slogans and buzz words are fine for greeting cards and poor back-woods preachers who want to make a living in the god-business, but it's extremely DANGEROUS with regard to cohesion of the gospel message.  It's impossible to defend Christianity against encroachment of heretical religious systems like Islam when buzz words and slogans can so easily be adapted by them so as to attack the gospel. I have also studied Islam and was shocked recently when I sat in a Baptist congregation and listened to the sermon of a substitute preacher who quoted Muslim principles to support his theme.  Members of the congregation sat in their seats and bobbed their heads - ignorant of the fact the man had succeeded in subverting the gospel in their hearing.

Stupidity is not a virtue.

You're upset. You don't like what you see. You regard blind acceptance as weak and dangerous and you're convinced of the now illegitimate role of the church members in eschatology and perhaps other areas. 

This discussion is Rapture before The Antichrist. I like the topic. If you'd like we can take that up.