When hymn/chorus lyrics are wrong...

[NotAllThere]

16 minutes ago, BibleStudent100 said:

These are second person singular forms actually (sorry, linguistics major here).  English used to make a distinction (this concept is called T-V Distinction in linguistics) between formal and informal human relationships based on age, social standing, etc. and so developed formality in these pronouns, but the informal and formal distinction was gradually discontinued.  Remember, that Shakespeare greatly unified the English language with his writings and the KJV was completed just five years prior to his death and Shakespeare peppered his writings with T-V Distinctions forms, which in turn, influenced the lyricists who wrote religious hymns.  However, in common day speech, the T-V Distinction in English was beginning to fall out of usage among the common people after Shakespeare's death, although the more traditional and "purist" creators of these hymns stuck with the difference between formal and informal registers.

Yes, some modern Romance languages (e.g. Spanish and French) keep the different registers in place, although there are regional differences in how they are implemented.  I attended a Spanish church for some years and most of us the informal register in our public prayers in behalf of the congregation, although I remember a few brothers would use the formal register, as indicated in their verb conjugations and pronouns.  

The overall point to remember is that the Bible was written for the common day man and should be translated into the form of language currently used.

Yes. Second person singular. I've got a maths degree,  but counting is hard! However, they are using the nominative "thee" where the accusative "thou" should be used. However, this was a song original written in 1985 in Modern English that someone in the 90s decided to try to translate into Early Modern English. And failed. And I love the KJV, though I use a modern day version for study.

The Bibles I've read in German or French (and biblical Greek) ALWAYS use the 2nd person singular towards God, and only use the 2nd person plural where the Hebrew or Greek require it. 

Then sings my soul my saviour God to thee, how great thou art. 

Wonderful.

Edited March 1, 2020 by NotAllThere
Colour

[BeauJangles]

2 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

I'm glad the confusion has been sorted out. Truly we are two people divided by a common language. 

Yeah, same here. You are obviously a linguist, and myself, a poet. Profile check: About me. It's all there. 

BeauJangles

Edited March 1, 2020 by BeauJangles

[NotAllThere]

*hug*

[JustPassingThru]

@NotAllThere

I never really paid any attention to the grammar in the songs and Hymns, ...what was more important to me is that they were Scripturally correct.

As the Deer is one of my favorite praise songs, ...what the Lord has shown me in leading worship is Father "inhabits" the praises of His people Psa 22:3 and when His people are worshiping Him in Spirit and Truth, ...it's Jesus who is leading the Worship through the Holy Spirit Psa 22:22, and Jesus "only" chooses songs He "has" wrote and/or inspired to Worship our Heavenly Father.

Don't you think it would be absurd for Jesus to use any song "inspired" by our flesh to offer up before our Holy God?

Holy, holy, Holy is the LORD of Hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory. Isa 6:3

So personally, for me, we use the Praise Songs and the Hymns as we know them and have learned them and it seems Father isn't too concerned with the "correct" grammar, ..but rather more concerned with the condition of our hearts.

Lord bless

[Sower]

11 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

This isn't a quote from Psalm 42, nor is it an old hymn, this is a modern song. It is important to consider the words we sing in church - some of the songs are plain heresy. Some wise soul once said that the quickest way to get heresy into the church is via a catchy tune. There's a natural winnowing over time - the less good hymns, and those with dodgy theology, just fall out of use. The classics remain. I'm very glad about that.

I agree with you concerning words/meanings slipped in to change doctrine.
Many new bible versions have done that.
I was saved and grew in knowledge using KJV, and all my memorizing also.
You said; "This isn't a quote from Psalm 42"
"As the hart    panteth    after the  water    brooks,   so panteth my soul   after   thee, O God.   "Psalm 42
"As the deer   panteth     for    the  water                  So my soul longeth   after   Thee
Looks pretty close to me, and assume(ed) the Psalm was the inspiration for the "modern song"
I was simply stating my preference to the old 'style' words meaning, that which I was familiar with.
I honestly could care less about grammar, unless there is a doctrinal problem.
I understand your frustration/contention with the grammar observing your detailed knowledge of language.
Today's cell phone text's using short hand/grammar must drive you nuts.
I have a similar problem as a cabinet/trim carpenter having done many years of high end work for architects and interior desecrators.
My wife and I can go to a neat restaurant for a night out and while eating our meal I may look at/examine
the trim/cabinetry work at our booth, and 'inform' my wife that it looked like a bunch of wood butchers installed the crown moldings.
Her usual reply is 'shut up and enjoy the food'
Details, details, details, woe is me..........................

A bloody mess, eh wot.....


 

 

 

 

[NotAllThere]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

I may be wrong, but I understand "thou" to indicate a respect for the person being addressed?

You're wrong. In every language where there is a difference between 2nd person singular and 2nd person plural/formal, they use the former. Thou isn't formal. It's informal and intimate. Beautiful.

12 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

@NotAllThere

I never really paid any attention to the grammar in the songs and Hymns, ...what was more important to me is that they were Scripturally correct.

As the Deer is one of my favorite praise songs, ...what the Lord has shown me in leading worship is Father "inhabits" the praises of His people Psa 22:3 and when His people are worshiping Him in Spirit and Truth, ...it's Jesus who is leading the Worship through the Holy Spirit Psa 22:22, and Jesus "only" chooses songs He "has" wrote and/or inspired to Worship our Heavenly Father.

Don't you think it would be absurd for Jesus to use any song "inspired" by our flesh to offer up before our Holy God?

Holy, holy, Holy is the LORD of Hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory. Isa 6:3

So personally, for me, we use the Praise Songs and the Hymns as we know them and have learned them and it seems Father isn't too concerned with the "correct" grammar, ..but rather more concerned with the condition of our hearts.

Lord bless

When Jesus used Psalms, he used the correct case.  Nowhere did he address who in German would be called "du" as "dich". This doesn't come out in modern English, since the 2nd person singular and plural are both you. But it is obvious in the original Greek. 

And, just checking. but you did notice that the original song didn't use thee. It used "you"... (I've found the culprits - Maranatha singers, 1991).

3 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

Although this may seem trivial, there has been a move since the 1980's to take away or water down the deep respect and reverence our Sovereign Lord and king deserves. A change of focus on Jesus, speaking of Him as our pal and mate, has become the norm.

While closeness to God is important, shouldn't respect and healthy awe also be taken into account?

In this situation, words chosen can matter when referring to our Creator.

The original song used you. The usage (and complaint) about using thee is based upon simple grammar. There is no watering down of the original. It used you. 

The use of Thee. Thou, Thy and Thine, is absolutely not about reverence. It's about intimacy and familiarity. If it were about respect and honour, French would use "vous". They don't. They use "tu". Similarly, in German, they don't use "Sie", they use "du.".

[NotAllThere]

My original post was meant in a light-hearted manner. I'm sorry that it, and my responses have triggered so many people. No offence was ever meant. If you took offence, I'm sorry. But that is your problem. If you need the scripture to back that up, I'll be glad to supply. 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by NotAllThere

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, NotAllThere said:

My original post was meant in a light-hearted manner. I'm sorry that it, and my responses have triggered so many people. No offence was ever meant. If you took offence, I'm sorry. But that is your problem. If you need the scripture to back that up, I'll be glad to supply. 

You'll have to pardon us, brother. We've been referred at times as, "thick as a brick". Nothing at all wrong with your post. Keep 'em coming.