Is the Church divided and disconnected

[johnthebaptist]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:46 PM, Melinda12 said:

I've lost patience and interest in going to church regularly. I go sometimes now. I find myself far happier reading my Bible, praying and analysing the Bible at home or in a small group. 

Have you gotten involved in your church's ministry?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, charisenexcelsis said:

When they meet together, do they decide on a time and a place? Is there a contact person who coordinates? Do they worship, disciple, evangelize? If so, they are organized and I assume they are humans.

You have raised valid questions. Very good, for we need to look at these things more closely.

On the larger meetings of course they need to be organised and maybe a teacher or other ministry speak. However these should only be occasionally as the Body needs to operate together with each one bringing, discussing, sharing, praying, etc etc.

With large organisations there is always the danger of a few being in charge and dominating the others. Also any heresy that is preached affects a large number. Whereas in smaller groups the error does not get passed on without discerning by others around. Also with the smaller group, there is the recognition of each other`s gifts and thus room is usually given for those, as well as mature believers respected.

So...as to how we, my hubby and I operate. Well not how I first expected. I did think 15 years ago that we would have a house meeting on such and such etc etc. As it has come about the Holy Spirit gave me 3 words - Relate, Connect, & Function. So for a few years we `related,`  to believers & unbelievers. We then connected in everyday life, mentoring them as they received from us, in 2`s and 3`s. We did this across the valley we live in with different relationships in each town. (4 towns). We would have fellowship, meals, activities, holidays, farm stays, etc living amongst people and their family and contacts.

Then over the years we have seen these people grow in the Lord and they are doing the same. We all have a Holy Spirit network of relationships that we connect and learn to function with. It is a very much Holy Spirit work. And at the moment we are moving into learning how to deal with the demonic that arises in people.   

Hope that is of some practical help.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, charisenexcelsis said:

While I do not need your help on this, I would ask you, how do you lay hands upon some to go to the farther reaches, like Antioch did? Do you consider yourself under anyone's authority? Do you have times of corporate worship? Are there people specifically qualified to disciple?

My uncle and grandfather were recognised as apostles by the apostolic denomination world wide. They were actually founding fathers. Both of them were Presidents of the denomination in Australia and New Zealand respectively. What I share on the forum or teach to others is what I have learnt from them. My husband and I have been in eldership, and on boards, so have had much experience.

In our immediate group there is also a husband & wife who have been on eldership and a recognised Prophet. There is a husband (passed on now) & wife who were in Pastoral ministry also. Then another couple who have served on boards, plus a couple of ladies who have run teaching or fellowship groups. The main group is scattered through out the valley but come together sometimes for prayer, singing & fellowship. We are all busy in our areas mentoring and reaching out to others.

As to `under authority` that would be the Lord and then in right relationship to others. 

My husband and I were recently asked to go to a denominational house group and teach them. So you can see we are recognised in our area and respected.

BTW I personally haven`t laid hands on anyone to send them further away. However the prophet and the pastoral ministers have.

Also I have been to Bible College many years ago. You can read what I teach in my blogs here on Worthy under `Marilyn`s Messages.` (George named it)

[Justin Adams]

 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Just DO IT people...

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Blessings on you. I am not in need of another mentor, thank-you. There are many who are still faithful. Do not be quick to judge broadly.

I did not offer to mentor you. I don`t know where you got that idea. You and your wife look mature, so I would think you are mentoring others.

Also I have not judged anyone, as you seem to think, but am addressing a false teaching.

[Marilyn C]

32 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Your constant references to churches as "man's organizations" leads to many conclusions. How about God's organizations? Would you ever use that term?

No I wouldn`t use that term. I am NOT against people organising meetings, private or public. What I am against is false teaching regarding -

1. That form of assembly being the ONLY way the Body of Christ can gather.

2. That the organisation is THE source of authority for believers, for discipling, teaching, etc.

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

And that is where we part ways. Your inability to consider that there might even be a "God's organization". 

And your scripture/s to show this?

[Marilyn C]

51 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

The appointing of deacons and elders, the recording of a regular time for meeting, the record of meeting places, the sharing of the teaching of the Apostles, the addressing of the Epistles to churches rather than to individuals, the sending of missionaries, the reference to standard teaching, the record that every week people prepared with words and songs, the record of church discipline, the giving of the fivefold ministry, etc. Signs of God's organization. do you want references on each one of these? 

Thank you for all those important details. I do know scriptures for those, so that is ok.

Now I do not agree that individuals should just go about by themselves. So you seem to think I believe that. You say, `rather than to individuals...`  Though of course we do see epistles to Timothy, Titus and Philemon, who were members of local bodies.

Yes all you wrote are good signs of the Lord, the Head, by His Holy Spirit organising local bodies together. That is what I see.

However I do not see central control over these local groups. I do not see that they had gatherings

- so large that everyone could not contribute

- and that one person always brought the message.

- Or that people from other areas could control their local group.

Big differences there as to how scripture shows what the Head`s organising is and what man organises to control others.

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, charisenexcelsis said:

When a problem arose, they went to the Apostles council in Jerusalem. Both Titus and Timothy were told to appoint elders and deacons, showing a central authority in their area. Your assumption is that there is not a single central organization which is in submission to the Head, Jesus Christ. I disagree and believe that there are God's organizations. I really have no reason to continue this discussion. Bless you and your church.

That`s fine. I`ll start a thread on this topic and so more people can share their thoughts from scripture.

I`ll just say that the 12 Apostles were for that time only as they were a special group that were in Christ but were called to rule over Israel eventually. (Matt. 19: 28,  Rev. 21: 14) The council at that time was necessary to sort out the difference between Israel & the Body of Christ - did a Gentile have to be circumcised. This is not an issue today.

Of course mature believers would gather together from other regions as the Holy Spirit brought them together to clarify truth. This has happened all throughout Church history for the restoration of all truth regarding the Lord, His character and His purposes. However there was no central control until man put it in place.

Note Paul does not refer to his apostleship from man, but from the Lord. And when Paul received revelation from the Lord he did not immediately go up to Jerusalem to confer with flesh and blood. (Gal. 1: 16 & 17). Paul even had to rebuke Peter in from of the others, so there is no central control there.  

As to `central control in their area,` I think a good reading of 1 Thess. 1: 1,  2: 7 & 11, reveals the attitude of those elders etc - as a nursing mother and as a father, exhorting and comforting.` Also not taking money for themselves but working with their hands. Big difference to today in many places. 

I`ll leave the rest for the other thread.

[Behold]

On 3/6/2020 at 7:31 PM, charisenexcelsis said:

There are two aspects of the body of Christ. There is an organization--which allows functionality. And there is the organism--which brings life. Both are Biblical and both are needed.

 

Charisennexcelsis Said.....

 """""""""" Very broad statement. Not all leaders are theologically invalid. 

You chose to use a splinter group that is rejected by almost every "denomination". 

And if there were no "denominations", there would be millions of denominations. Denominations can provide many things useful to the Body. It allows men of God to be under authority. It allows better support for missions. It allows opportunity for those called to scholarship. """""""""""

 

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Well, i never said that all leaders are theologically invalid.

You said i said that, but, i never said that, wrote that, or explained that.    Perhaps you should read what i write, more carefully.

 

Also, in case you have not noticed, the fact of "denominations", is proof of   theological and denominational "splintering".  as what is a denomination, but an attempt  to splinter from the REST of the Body... , and use their own theology as their reason to do it.   so, ALL Denominations, are a "splinter".......all

 

And i chose not a group, but a particular teaching that is much rejected  by many other denominations.   But i could have chose the Catholics, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutherans, or any other name brand, and then you have the same issue, as no matter the brand you choose, there will be 80% of the other denominations that disagree theologically,  with the brand you choose,   And thats my point.   As if they all agreed, there would not be 500 denominations.

 

Finally, in the NT, you didnt have denominations..    You had a body of believers.      That was the original idea.   Also, in the NT, the idea was to let a few speak, and the members judge.   So, the idea of  one man running the show, is a NT Pauline Doctrine, but, he never meant for there to be 500 denominations, that all disagree theologically.

However, Satan is very fond of this set up, and you can count on it to continue.