VULTURES and a CORPSE.... Matt 24:28

[XRose]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:12 PM, JoeCanada said:

VULTURES AND A CORPSE

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Gospel in the end times....Nelson Walter

Jesus then further instructs us that there will be a division; some will be taken and some will be left. Jesus gives two examples: people in a bed or in a field. Jesus is obviously implying that those who are taken will be taken to safety just as Noah and Lot were taken to safety prior to the judgments of those days!  This common sense interpretation flies in the face of those  who believe that those taken are the wicked taken away to judgment and those who remain are the righteous.  Obviously the linkage to the stories of Noah and Lot implies the righteous are raptured to safety.

The disciples were confused as well as we are today and asked Jesus, “Where Lord?” By this they meant, where are the righteous taken? As a capstone to this entire passage Jesus then gave us the illustration of the vultures and a corpse in order to make his meaning completely clear.

I think the vulture remark merely means that all the unbelieving people will be following the false prophets.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Point being that the Olivet Discourse it not solely about Temple, if at all, and in no way is it for Jews only.

Shalom, Diaste.

I never said that it was "solely about the Temple," nor did I say that it was "for the Jews only." However, He was talking to Jews only, and the first "church" was built ENTIRELY of children of Israel, even in other towns. It wasn't until God spoke to Kefa ("Cephas," Shim'own "Peter") and introduced him to Cornelius, that Gentiles were adopted into the family beyond the occasional conversion.

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There is too much in the prophecy that has not occurred for the prophecy to connect only with 70 AD, if at all. The prophecy is about a future generation that will be a witness to 'all these things' which was not fulfilled in 70 AD.

In reality the Matt 24 prophecy about the A of D can only occur if the Temple stands, according to Paul; "...so he sits in the temple showing himself that he is god." The A of D did not occur in 70 AD and the Temple was destroyed ergo, the prophecy is for another time.

Here, you're in error. More of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled than you are WILLING to admit. The abomination of desolation, or the abomination that made them completely desolate, WAS about 66 to 70 A.D. You need to go back and READ what happened with the Roman occupation of Israel. Read Josephus' The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem, Book II! Read Eusebius' Church History 3, 5, 3! Read Epiphanius' Panarion 29, 7, 7-8 and 30, 2, 7! Read Epiphanius' On Weights and Measures 15! Those who don't learn from History's fulfillment of the prophecies are DOOMED to think that prophecies must still be fulfilled!

It was Gessius Florus, the last procurator of Israel in 64-66 A.D., who was the bad guy. (Read chapter 14, sections 1-6, of The Wars Of The Jews.) HE was the one who desecrated the Temple, for some profit (17 talents of gold) but mostly to incite the Jews to insurrection! He was ITCHING for a fight, a war!

Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14-18 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It was at this time that the believers in Yeshua` were both warned by Yeshua` here in the Olivet Discourse, but also by an angel of God at that time, to RUN! FLEE! and they fled to Pella in the "Transjordan," i.e., the land across haNaahaar haYarden ("the Jordan River"), a village of the Decapolis in what was once the Land of Mow'aav ("Moab").

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I would say the destruction of the Temple was specifically to put an end to the national religious identity of the Jews. The fact that the Jewish spiritual identity lived as religious liturgy inside a cold, stone edifice must have been abhorrent to our Father. Especially since He was standing right in front of the entire nation, calling to them, pleading with them, practically begging them to see, and hear, and to come to Him. 

The only prophecy I see related to the destruction of the Temple is the bit at the beginning where the dramatic language is unequivocal, "...not one stone on another than has not been thrown down." 

Then, you are not looking very carefully. PLEASE, don't stubbornly stick to this line of thinking! It HAPPENED!!!

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Beyond that the only group that the prophecy concerns is the group of believers no matter the ethnicity. Would religious, practicing Jewry have any desire to find Christ in hidden places based on rumors? Would they have to be wary of false Christs? No. The Jews as a religion and a people do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. They await an earthly Messiah. Any warnings about false Christs in hidden chambers only means something to believers in Christ.

You're forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT POINT: The word "Christ" MEANS "Messiah!" The word "Messiah" is an English transliteration (through Greek "Messias") of the Hebrew word "Maashiyach." The word "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos" which is a translation of the Hebrew word "Maashiyach." Both words would be translated into English as "Anointed [One]" or "Rubbed One" or "Massaged One." To anoint a person was not only to pour oil upon that person, but to RUB IT IN! Furthermore, that person was so selected by God to be a priest, king, or prophet, at God's choosing! In this particular case, we are talking about the Son of David being so anointed by God to be His Choice for King!

Yes, the Jews await an earthly Messiah, but Yeshua` WAS and IS that Messiah! Would religious, practicing Jewry have any desire to find the Messiah in hidden places based on rumors? YES! They CERTAINLY WOULD! Would they have to be wary of false Messiahs? YES! Especially during the Roman persecutions, they had SEVERAL people who claimed to be the Messiah! (Yeshua` was giving His OWN Jewish disciples a "heads up" on the potential for deception!)

On this point, you are DEFINITELY WRONG!

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Are the Jews in danger of being persecuted for the name of Jesus? No. They do not confess Jesus is Lord as a people, a nation, or a religion. Only believers in Jesus confess Christ is Lord. It was the Jews of the nation demanding the death of Jesus and the persecution of His followers. So how was it the Jews were persecuted for the Name of Jesus?

Yeshua`s disciples and His disciples' disciples were JEWS! They WERE persecuted for the name (authority) of Yeshua` being the Messiah, both by the Romans and the unbelieving Jews! WOW! Have you EVER been duped!

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As a religion, a nation, and a people, the Jews do not adhere to the Gospel. The Gospel is for those who believe, of all nations and peoples and tongues. Matt 24:4-14 is given to those who follow after Christ as this part of the prophecy concerns false Christs and persecution based on the loyalty to Christ of the believer, wherever and whoever they are. It's true the disciples are Jewish, but they chose to follow Jesus. At that point they were converted from religious faith to faith in our Father and became believers in the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

This is just more gobbledy-gook, gibberish! TRANSLATE your words, and you SHOULD be able to see that you're way off.

And, verse 14 talks about the Gospel of the KINGDOM, not the "Gospel" you're thinking about.

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The fact remains the prophecy of Matt 24 was about much, much more than the Temple, if at all, and was for all people that follow after Jesus.

I challenge you to study it out. I PRAY TO GOD that you can find the truth soon.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

I never said that it was "solely about the Temple," nor did I say that it was "for the Jews only." However, He was talking to Jews only, and the first "church" was built ENTIRELY of children of Israel, even in other towns. It wasn't until God spoke to Kefa ("Cephas," Shim'own "Peter") and introduced him to Cornelius, that Gentiles were adopted into the family beyond the occasional conversion.

Here, you're in error. More of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled than you are WILLING to admit. The abomination of desolation, or the abomination that made them completely desolate, WAS about 66 to 70 A.D. You need to go back and READ what happened with the Roman occupation of Israel. Read Josephus' The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem, Book II! Read Eusebius' Church History 3, 5, 3! Read Epiphanius' Panarion 29, 7, 7-8 and 30, 2, 7! Read Epiphanius' On Weights and Measures 15! Those who don't learn from History's fulfillment of the prophecies are DOOMED to think that prophecies must still be fulfilled!

It was Gessius Florus, the last procurator of Israel in 64-66 A.D., who was the bad guy. (Read chapter 14, sections 1-6, of The Wars Of The Jews.) HE was the one who desecrated the Temple, for some profit (17 talents of gold) but mostly to incite the Jews to insurrection! He was ITCHING for a fight, a war!

Matthew 24:15-20 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14-18 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It was at this time that the believers in Yeshua` were both warned by Yeshua` here in the Olivet Discourse, but also by an angel of God at that time, to RUN! FLEE! and they fled to Pella in the "Transjordan," i.e., the land across haNaahaar haYarden ("the Jordan River"), a village of the Decapolis in what was once the Land of Mow'aav ("Moab").

Then, you are not looking very carefully. PLEASE, don't stubbornly stick to this line of thinking! It HAPPENED!!!

You're forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT POINT: The word "Christ" MEANS "Messiah!" The word "Messiah" is an English transliteration (through Greek "Messias") of the Hebrew word "Maashiyach." The word "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos" which is a translation of the Hebrew word "Maashiyach." Both words would be translated into English as "Anointed [One]" or "Rubbed One" or "Massaged One." To anoint a person was not only to pour oil upon that person, but to RUB IT IN! Furthermore, that person was so selected by God to be a priest, king, or prophet, at God's choosing! In this particular case, we are talking about the Son of David being so anointed by God to be His Choice for King!

Yes, the Jews await an earthly Messiah, but Yeshua` WAS and IS that Messiah! Would religious, practicing Jewry have any desire to find the Messiah in hidden places based on rumors? YES! They CERTAINLY WOULD! Would they have to be wary of false Messiahs? YES! Especially during the Roman persecutions, they had SEVERAL people who claimed to be the Messiah! (Yeshua` was giving His OWN Jewish disciples a "heads up" on the potential for deception!)

On this point, you are DEFINITELY WRONG!

Yeshua`s disciples and His disciples' disciples were JEWS! They WERE persecuted for the name (authority) of Yeshua` being the Messiah, both by the Romans and the unbelieving Jews! WOW! Have you EVER been duped!

This is just more gobbledy-gook, gibberish! TRANSLATE your words, and you SHOULD be able to see that you're way off.

And, verse 14 talks about the Gospel of the KINGDOM, not the "Gospel" you're thinking about.

I challenge you to study it out. I PRAY TO GOD that you can find the truth soon.

There are several problems with this but two stand out. The first is:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Matt 24

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Luke 21

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Mark 13

The second is the return of Jesus and the gathering. Only the generation that is witness to all these things, including the return of Jesus and the gathering is the generation where all the end of the age prophecy in Matt Luke and Mark will come to pass as written. Any generation from the time of Jesus to today has not seen these prophecies fulfilled, in whole or part, because no event similar to one in the prophecies has occurred in conjunction with the return of Jesus and the gathering, and in the eyewitness of a single generation. So no, it did not happen in whole as written. I reject the preterist view in whole and in part.

The act of sacrificing a few birds on a piece of pottery in the doorway does not comport with "So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be" and "He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 

The A of D example is along the lines of Antiochus IV where he reportedly erected a statute of Zeus in the Temple. Since the A of D must stand where it ought not it's either a statue or a man. Since Paul prophesies it's a man, I'm gonna go with a man as written in 2 Thess 2.

 

[Retrobyter]

35 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There are several problems with this but two stand out. The first is:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Matt 24

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Luke 21

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Mark 13

The second is the return of Jesus and the gathering. Only the generation that is witness to all these things, including the return of Jesus and the gathering is the generation where all the end of the age prophecy in Matt Luke and Mark will come to pass as written. Any generation from the time of Jesus to today has not seen these prophecies fulfilled, in whole or part, because no event similar to one in the prophecies has occurred in conjunction with the return of Jesus and the gathering, and in the eyewitness of a single generation. So no, it did not happen in whole as written. I reject the preterist view in whole and in part.

The act of sacrificing a few birds on a piece of pottery in the doorway does not comport with "So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be" and "He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 

The A of D example is along the lines of Antiochus IV where he reportedly erected a statute of Zeus in the Temple. Since the A of D must stand where it ought not it's either a statue or a man. Since Paul prophesies it's a man, I'm gonna go with a man as written in 2 Thess 2.

 

Shalom, Diaste.

And so, you'll go on believing "the Lie," and we'll continue having to wait for the Messiah to return because we won't do our part to be sure that the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, return in heart to their God and His Choice for King.

And, btw, Yeshua` never said ANYTHING about a sacrifice in the Temple, a few birds or otherwise. THAT nonsense comes from an improper translation of the HEBREW word for abomination, which doesn't even appear here, since all we have are Greek translations of this Olivet Discourse!

What defiled the Temple was not a "sacrifice"; it was the entry of Gentiles, ritually unclean and uncircumcised in body and mind, STANDING where they should not be! This is PRECISELY what Gessius Florus did, TAKING things that did not belong to Him from the Temple!

Also, one must understand the word "generation" correctly. Later.

[iamlamad]

On 3/7/2020 at 11:12 AM, JoeCanada said:

VULTURES AND A CORPSE

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Gospel in the end times....Nelson Walters

In the middle of the Olivet Discourse is a strange illustration about vultures and a corpse that the church does not fully understand. Matthew 24:28 (NASB) says, “Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” It’s my opinion that whenever we don’t comprehend a passage it is likely that a mistaken theology is blocking our understanding. That is the case with this verse. The Church does not grasp this illustration because it refers to the resurrection that will occur after the great tribulation. Their view that the resurrection and rapture occur prior to the tribulation prevents them from seeing what this verse truly means.

 

The Context

In order to properly understand what Jesus was teaching by means of this short illustration or parable, we need to place the verse in context. It occurs in two different contexts within scripture. The first context is within the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. The second context is found in Luke 17 immediately after healing the ten lepers while he and his disciples were on their way to Jerusalem. Like many of Jesus’ teachings, he may have taught this short illustration many times.

One thing is certain however.  In both instances it occurs at the very end of that portion of Jesus’ teaching.  Jesus obviously viewed it as important.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus places this illustration at the conclusion of his teaching about the Great Tribulation (verses 9 thru 28 of Matthew 24.) In the preceding verses Jesus had just warned the disciples about the False Messiah and False Prophet that would try to deceive the world with false wonders.

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.  Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. (Matt. 24: 23 -26 NASB)

Immediately after this, Jesus gives the one true sign of his return, his coming on the clouds in great glory. Jesus tells us that his Shekinah glory will shine like lightening from the east to the west. This is one sign Satan’s false messiah and prophet will not be able to duplicate.

In the very next verse, Jesus us tells us the Illustration of the vultures and a corpse. The context obviously indicates the illustration has something to do with the return of Christ.

Luke’s account of this illustration places it in almost the exact same context. In Luke’s telling Jesus begins with the same warning about the false messiah and false prophet. He then gives the same sign of his actual return, his coming on the clouds in his Shekinah glory. Prior to giving the illustration of the vultures and a corpse in Luke, Jesus first gives several other teachings which are all related to his return.

The first two teachings show that Jesus’ return will be like the Days of Noah and the Days of Lot. In the first example Noah is taken to safety in the ark while the unrighteous perish in the flood. In the second example, Lot and his family are taken to safety by angels to a mountain while the unrighteous are burned with fire and brimstone. Jesus then warns the disciples that on that day (the day of Jesus’ return when his followers are taken to safety) they are not to return for their possessions or look back on what they had. Jesus then gives the warning, “Remember Lot’s wife” who looked back on Sodom and was turned into a pillar of salt.

Jesus then further instructs us that there will be a division; some will be taken and some will be left. Jesus gives two examples: people in a bed or in a field. Jesus is obviously implying that those who are taken will be taken to safety just as Noah and Lot were taken to safety prior to the judgments of those days!  This common sense interpretation flies in the face of those  who believe that those taken are the wicked taken away to judgment and those who remain are the righteous.  Obviously the linkage to the stories of Noah and Lot implies the righteous are raptured to safety.

The disciples were confused as well as we are today and asked Jesus, “Where Lord?” By this they meant, where are the righteous taken? As a capstone to this entire passage Jesus then gave us the illustration of the vultures and a corpse in order to make his meaning completely clear.

The Meaning

The problem is the meaning is not clear to most today.   What do vultures and a corpse have to do with Jesus’ return?  The illustration is actually easy to understand but faulty theology will block the clear and simple meaning.

Some believe this illustration is just an idiom like “where there’s smoke there’s fire.”  These teachers interpret it as a phrase that means “what I’m telling you should be as obvious as the nose on your face.”  The fact that no such idiom is known from that time period does not deter these teachers.

Others, like Dr. Thomas Ice, believe it is a judgment reference to Rev. 19: 17-21 where after the battle of Armageddon, an angel summons the birds of the air to feast on the armies of the Beast.  The fact that the word translated “vultures” in Matthew and “birds” in Revelation are not the same does not deter these teachers.

Interestingly it is the word translated vultures that is one of the keys to understanding the true meaning of the illustration.  The Greek word used means “eagles.” In Revelation this same word is used to symbolize angels in Revelation 4:7, 8:13 and 12:14.   Why is it mistranslated “vultures?” if its clear meaning is “eagles?”  This translator error is another example of the translator allowing his preconceived theology to color Jesus’ clear meaning.  He was speaking of angels.

To further reinforce this meaning, the word translated “gather” is  the  Greek word that means “gather together.” I am sure you recognize this word! Just a few verses later in Jesus’ vision of the rapture in Matthew 24: 31, the angels “gather together” the elect from the four winds.  In 2 Thess. 2: 1 Paul uses this same word to describe the rapture, ” with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.”  This short illustration in Matthew 24:28 pictures the same event, angels gathering the living and the dead in Christ and catching them up into the air to meet our Lord.

It is critically important to note in Matthew the angels are gathering the dead who died knowing Christ (the corpse), which is the resurrection. This occurs before the rapture of the living (1 Thess. 4:16).   In Luke the word for body means a living body, in Matthew it means a dead body.  Looking at both versions of this illustration in combination gives the meaning that angels will gather together the Christians who are alive and those who died knowing Christ.  This is the rapture and resurrection!

The context of this short illustration occurring after the Great Tribulation is further overwhelming proof that the rapture and the resurrection occur after the great tribulation at the sixth seal of Revelation.  It disproves a Pre-tribulation rapture in one short, one verse illustration!

“Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

The Church does not grasp this illustration because it refers to the resurrection that will occur after the great tribulation. 

This is pure opinion and speculation! Sorry, but this is not a picture of any resurrection! It is the picture of bodies from which the live or spirit has gone: they are dead dead dead and vultures are going to feast on the dead bodies.  How could ANYONE imagine the bodies are to be resurrected? NO! They are to be eaten by birds!

Without much doubt, this verse is referring to the parable of the tares.

 

⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Question: will angels take the entire body or will they just pull the spirit and soul out of the body and leave the body on the ground, dead?  My guess is, they will just take the spirit and leave the dead body. I think Jeremiah 25 speaks of this:

 

³⁰ Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

³¹ A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.

³² Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

³³ And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Remember, this seems to be at the same moment Jesus enters the atmosphere. One thing is certain: this is not speaking of any resurrection where the dead become alive. It is talking about the alive becoming dead.

Why or how could anyone see this as the resurrection?  I propose it is reading with preconceived glasses. 

As for Jesus mention of Noah and Lot, the verses TELL us the intended meaning we are suppose to get: it is NOT who was taken and who was left. That is not the Author's intent at all. Read: 

Matthew 24:³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Notice, readers, that little word "FOR:" Why is it there? To tie what follows to what was just written. What is the intended meaning? It is clear: they were eating, drinking, marrying etc, or living life to the fullest as people do, with NO CLUE that their end was up. They woke up that morning expecting that day to be just like the day before - but on that day, they all died. 

It is going to be the same on the day Jesus returns.  Massive numbers of people are going to die around the world. 

Finally, without a doubt millions will die at Armageddon, but this goes much father: the parable of the tares will be worldwide. 

When exactly will be the resurrection of those beheaded during the 70th week? Can anyone show a verse that pinpoints the time? I have never found it. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

On 3/9/2020 at 9:38 AM, Sister said:

Hi Revelation Man

Jesus told us that when he comes, it will be as quick as lightning.  That fast. 

  Matthew 24:27   For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So when he said this;
  Matthew 24:28   For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The above puzzled me for many years.  One day it was revealed to me, and the answer was so simple.

When the two witnesses are killed, the world will be rejoicing and sending presents to one another.  All the attention will be on these two who are laying dead in the streets.  The eagles are the world, they come to where the action is.  Many will flock there to see, and with reporters, and tv camera's the whole world will be watching.. 

Now keep in mind - The... second woe... has now sounded, and behold the third woe comes "quickly"

Three and a half days later, after the two witnesses are brought back to life, the sign of the appearing of Christ comes.

 

Matthew 24:29   Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

  Matthew 24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  Matthew 24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From what I see, in what Christ was hinting at, is that the carcass comes first, then the eagles come.  That carcass he was speaking of is the two witnesses.

What does Christ say next?

Matthew 24:32   Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 24:33   So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
 

Now reflect back on these two witnesses;

  Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14   The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15   And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The third woe is the Coming. 

The third woe comes after the two witnesses are brought back to life...in that same hour.  Quickly.

Hence the example of the fig tree.  When the leaves start growing in spring, we know summer is near.   Likewise, when we see these two witnesses raised back to life, "the season" of when Christ comes is near,...even at the doors. That soon.  It's practically all over.

That's the sign that Christ will appear SOON.  When we see those two wittnesses laying dead in the streets and the world is focused on them.  He's not speaking about the eagles coming for the carcass after Christ comes, but before he does.  Just follow it through in that order he gave, in Matthew, and think on it for a little while.

 

Hi Sister,

When the two witnesses are killed, the world will be rejoicing and sending presents to one another.  All the attention will be on these two who are laying dead in the streets.  The eagles are the world, they come to where the action is.  Many will flock there to see, and with reporters, and tv camera's the whole world will be watching.. 

Now keep in mind - The... second woe... has now sounded, and behold the third woe comes "quickly"

Three and a half days later, after the two witnesses are brought back to life, the sign of the appearing of Christ comes.

The world will have already gone thru the first SIX TRUMPETS:

1St Trumpet - Hail and fire, mixed with blood....1/3 was burned up, 1/3 of the trees burned up, and all the green grass

2nd Trumpet - a great mtn burning with fire thrown into the sea.... 1/3 became blood, 1/3 creatures died, 1/3 of ships destroyed

3rd Trumpet - a great star , burning , fell on a 1/3 of the rivers and springs, 1/3 of them became bitter, many died because of this

4th Trumpet - 1/3 of the sun, the moon and the stars were struck, not give light for 1/3 of the day/night

5th Trumpet - locusts....torment everyone who does not have the seal of God - torment for 5 months 

6th Trumpet - 200 million army.... plagues of fire, smoke and brimstone - 1/3 of mankind killed

"Many will flock there to see, and with reporters, and tv camera's the whole world will be watching.."

 Do you really think people will be sitting around their tv sets with what has been going on for the past year or so? Do you think tv crews will be in Israel trying to capture the image of the 2 witnesses laying dead in the street?

I don't believe their will be any electricity then. No internet. No cell service.

If there is panic now because of the threat of a virus, imagine the pandemonium that will exist in the world after six trumpets. 

 

 

 

 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Do you really think people will be sitting around their tv sets with what has been going on for the past year or so? Do you think tv crews will be in Israel trying to capture the image of the 2 witnesses laying dead in the street?

I don't believe their will be any electricity then. No internet. No cell service.

If there is panic now because of the threat of a virus, imagine the pandemonium that will exist in the world after six trumpets. 

Hi JoeCanada

I cannot think of any other way the whole world will know about the death of the two witnesses?  How can this prophecy be fulfilled if there is no electricity?  If they send messengers throughout the earth even by plane, news will not reach in time.  I think Christ will allow for the power to be working during these days simply to jolt the world.

 

Revelation 11:9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

  Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

“Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

The Church does not grasp this illustration because it refers to the resurrection that will occur after the great tribulation. 

This is pure opinion and speculation! Sorry, but this is not a picture of any resurrection! It is the picture of bodies from which the live or spirit has gone: they are dead dead dead and vultures are going to feast on the dead bodies.  How could ANYONE imagine the bodies are to be resurrected? NO! They are to be eaten by birds!

Without much doubt, this verse is referring to the parable of the tares.

 

⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Question: will angels take the entire body or will they just pull the spirit and soul out of the body and leave the body on the ground, dead?  My guess is, they will just take the spirit and leave the dead body. I think Jeremiah 25 speaks of this:

 

³⁰ Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

³¹ A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.

³² Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

³³ And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Remember, this seems to be at the same moment Jesus enters the atmosphere. One thing is certain: this is not speaking of any resurrection where the dead become alive. It is talking about the alive becoming dead.

Why or how could anyone see this as the resurrection?  I propose it is reading with preconceived glasses. 

As for Jesus mention of Noah and Lot, the verses TELL us the intended meaning we are suppose to get: it is NOT who was taken and who was left. That is not the Author's intent at all. Read: 

Matthew 24:³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Notice, readers, that little word "FOR:" Why is it there? To tie what follows to what was just written. What is the intended meaning? It is clear: they were eating, drinking, marrying etc, or living life to the fullest as people do, with NO CLUE that their end was up. They woke up that morning expecting that day to be just like the day before - but on that day, they all died. 

It is going to be the same on the day Jesus returns.  Massive numbers of people are going to die around the world. 

Finally, without a doubt millions will die at Armageddon, but this goes much father: the parable of the tares will be worldwide. 

When exactly will be the resurrection of those beheaded during the 70th week? Can anyone show a verse that pinpoints the time? I have never found it. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Actually, the parable of the wheat and the tares is about the END OF THE MILLENNIUM, not at its beginning!

You'd know this if you realize that the Kingdom doesn't begin until the King returns. While we may consider ourselves His future subjects, we are not yet in the Kingdom. When Yeshua` was talking about this parable, He said,

Matthew 13:36-43 (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (Greek: sunteleia aioonos = " end of-age"); and
the reapers are the angels. 

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This fits with ...

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0th Resurrection) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1st Resurrection) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming. 
24 (2nd Resurrection) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom (the Messiah's Kingdom) to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In other words, Yeshua` shall reign over a Kingdom that shall grow until He has conquered all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death itself. We're told in Revelation 20 that the period in which this happens will be a thousand years long, the Millennium.

Once He has annexed all of the countries of the world, then He shall submit Himself to His Father, giving His Father the Worldwide Kingdom, while He continues to reign forever over the children of Israel. We can't forget Gavri'el's words:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall save/rescue"). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." 

So, the "kingdom of their Father," the Kingdom of God the Father, begins at the end of the Millennium, while the Kingdom of the Messiah Yeshua` begins at the beginning of the Millennium and grows until it becomes a Worldwide Kingdom - an Empire - a thousand years later, which the Son will turn over to His Father at the end of the Millennium. Then, Yeshua` shall continue reigning "over the house of Ya`aqov forever, and of His Kingdom there shall be no end."

This also fits with the "parables" in which Yeshua` told us that He would begin His reign when He returned:

Matthew 25:31 (KJV) 

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory (in His brightness), and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory :

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

'Occupy till I come.' 

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, THEN he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 

Thus, the Millennium commences with the return of the Messiah Yeshua`, which also will be the beginning of His Kingdom, and the Millennium ends with the beginning of the Kingdom of the Father. It's not until the Father's Kingdom do we read ...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (a new sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (the first sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Therefore, this statement is not necessarily true about the Millennium. There SHALL remain tears, death, sorrow, crying, and anguish from work during the Millennium. Only AFTER the Millennium (Rev. 20:1-7) shall these things be removed (Rev. 21:4).

Now, regarding Armageddon, which is a GREEK word that transliterates the Hebrew PHRASE, "Har Megiddown," today called "Tel Megiddo," "the Mount of Megiddow"; this is a HILLTOP that exists 18 miles southeast from Haifa, Israel. It overlooks the pass through the mountains there and oversees Gei Yizr`ee'l, the Valley of Jezreel, to its north, where the actual battle will take place. The valley's name means "God sows." (Literally, it's "He sows, God [does]"; a verb often comes before the acting subject noun in Hebrew.) The valley has long been a fertile place because it is a wide basin where top soil collects from rain off the surrounding hills. It's been a natural staging area for many battles, and this final battle between Yeshua` and the forces that come against Israel will be fought there. The Scriptures say that the blood will be as deep as the horses' bridles, but it's not a "global" thing. It's quite local.

Yeshua` will win this battle (as expected), but then He will hold a WAR TRIBUNAL afterward. THAT is what is seen in the account of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

Make sure that you always check the Greek for the intensity and the particular meanings of verbs in a passage of Scripture, and don't let "globalism" get in your way. Don't blow things so out of proportion that they are untenable, unworkable.

In the account of the sheep and goat nations, these "goat" nations are RESIGNED to their future outcomes, but they are NOT THROWN there, yet. Timing is also often a factor in interpretation. Within nations are the individuals that comprise those nations. If a nation has been so resigned, it is still possible for an individual within that nation to come to the Messiah independently, but it will be much harder as the difficulties of that road will be set against him or her. It's not yet a "done deal" for an individual.

So, although you are right that the "wheat and tares" parable will be global, it will occur at the END of the Millennium, not at its beginning.

Many get the "wheat and tares" parable and the "sheep and goats" account mixed up, putting the "wheat and tares" parable first at the beginning of the Messiah's Kingdom, and the "sheep and goats" account at the end of the Millennium.

Finally, the Resurrection of those beheaded is specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:4, although by then, it is already a "past event" since those who had been beheaded are once again "air-breathing creatures." So, their resurrection occurred sometime before Revelation 20:4. I believe that Yeshua` will resurrect people when He returns, which is recorded in Revelation 11:15-19 as the seventh trumpeting. However, the sun, moon, and stars sign are found in ...

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sometimes, we're too close to the trees to see the forest!

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

I cannot think of any other way the whole world will know about the death of the two witnesses?

They'll know that something's up when blood turns back into water, and it rains, and things revert back to pre-plague conditions.  I'm sure that they will be aware that it's the two witnesses who are behind the adverse conditions they were facing.

[Diaste]

On 3/13/2020 at 4:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

And so, you'll go on believing "the Lie," and we'll continue having to wait for the Messiah to return because we won't do our part to be sure that the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, return in heart to their God and His Choice for King.

Um, that would be the work of the Spirit. And still He can be rejected. The Jews await and earthly Messiah. Look into it.

On 3/13/2020 at 4:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

And, btw, Yeshua` never said ANYTHING about a sacrifice in the Temple, a few birds or otherwise. THAT nonsense comes from an improper translation of the HEBREW word for abomination, which doesn't even appear here, since all we have are Greek translations of this Olivet Discourse!

The histories say Gessius Florus sacrificed birds on some earthenware in the doorway rendering the Temple ritually unclean. The stolen money was another spark that tried to light the flame.

On 3/13/2020 at 4:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

What defiled the Temple was not a "sacrifice"; it was the entry of Gentiles, ritually unclean and uncircumcised in body and mind, STANDING where they should not be! This is PRECISELY what Gessius Florus did, TAKING things that did not belong to Him from the Temple!

Not according to what the histories say happened...

On 3/13/2020 at 4:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

Also, one must understand the word "generation" correctly. Later.

Correctly? You mean like you do?

What is the standard?

Who is the arbiter of 'correct'?

You?