The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[not an echo]

On 8/8/2021 at 7:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/7/2020 at 2:02 PM, not an echo said:

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

For example, it is quite evident that the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail.  No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open."  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

                            

Certainly you don't include the first 5 in a chronology. John is in real time in the first 5. Chapter 6 would begin the chronology.

Hello Diaste,

Why would your stated reason present a snag for what I have said concerning the chronology of The Revelation?  John still saw what he recorded in chapter 1 first.  He still saw what he recorded in chapters 2-3 next, and in that order.  He still saw what he recorded in chapters 4-5 after that, and in that order.  And, he still saw what he saw in chapter 6, after that.

Now, in 4:1, John records concerning his be told that he was fixing to be shown the "things which must be hereafter."  And, the rest of chapter 4 and 5 are the prelude to his being shown what this was going to be.  So, in the sense of the chronology of what was going to actually be happening thereafter, what he records in chapter 6 begins that.  Again, what is the snag?  As I have said before, it is not even in the realm of possibility for the first 10 chapters of The Revelation to be put forth in a stricter chronological form.  And, the next 10 chapters are put forth in an overlapping chronological form---without fail.  As far as the last two chapters, I don't recall there being any questions by anyone concerning what I have stated concerning them.

On 8/8/2021 at 7:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/7/2020 at 2:02 PM, not an echo said:

 

After chapter 10, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to follow the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

                                 

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible.

                                                                                  

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and 2 chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.

So then the 3 sections would have no overlap with each other? I don't know if that's what you're saying or not. It sounds like that's what you are getting at. If that's the case there are problems.

In the context of what I put forth in my opening post, what do you see as being the problems?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

In the context of what I put forth in my opening post, what do you see as being the problems?

"

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason,  they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple;  - Rev 7

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. - Rev 15

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. - Rev 20

There is overlap of the above group with Chapters 15 and 20. Then there is overlap with Ch. 7 as well since the GT is where the beast reigns and makes war with the saints and overcomes them.

If there is no overlap between 15 and 20 with 7 then these are two separate groups both of which came out of the GT. It's only when the beast finally gets his 42 months of power that the mark is the forced as well as the forced worship of the image of the beast on pain of death[Rev 13]. This occurs in the GT.  Ergo, all three mentions of the above group are of the same group, not two separate groups. And that means Chapters 7, 15 and 20 overlap.

Again, Revelation is written in such a way that we see a successive concurrence throughout. Revelation has chronological elements, and a beginning and an end, but it is not a strict chronology and cannot be, even under your presentation. 

 

[Kelly2363]

16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason,  they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple;  - Rev 7

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. - Rev 15

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. - Rev 20

 

I rarely venture into any public discussion on the book of Revelation - but I do find your "overlapping" argument interesting. I was particularly interested in the claim that Revelation is not a strict chronology. Can you explain your thought on that a little more? 

Just to give you a sense of my own thinking on a chronological timeline precept - I always feel led of the Holy Spirit to view chronology in a prophetic meaning. That which was, which is and which is to come - is the chronological sense as Revelation states at the beginning - but it is the prophetic sense of God's own eternal position that at times seems to come through in Revelation. I wonder if the overlapping sense of your precept is in that meaning?

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

I rarely venture into any public discussion on the book of Revelation - but I do find your "overlapping" argument interesting. I was particularly interested in the claim that Revelation is not a strict chronology. Can you explain your thought on that a little more? 

Sure. 

Over the years I found certain events that either would have to be the same event or condition or those events would have to occur more than once. More than one occurrence of the same event is not impossible of course but it's pretty unlikely in my mind when it comes to this.

Like GT and all it's horrors occur only once. Jesus said 'never before and never after' to paraphrase. So we see mentions of those who experienced that time mentioned in Ch 7, 15 and 20. This alone doesn't prove a successive/concurrence but it's clear that one group is the same group and not 3 groups at different times.

Then there is this:

"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found." - Rev 16

This is such a similar description from the 6th seal and 7th bowl they must be the same. If it's a strict chronology and the 7th bowl comes well after the seals and trumps, the islands and mountains would have to be put back after the 6th seal so the islands could flee at the 7th bowl. That seems unlikely.

And:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11

"And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above." Rev 16

And:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake" - Rev 16

The characteristics of the events at the 7th trump and the 7th bowl are so similar they must be occurring near in time. 

In all this I am not saying they must occur at the exact time/space moment but are nonetheless concurrent on a continuum and in relative proximity. 

In Rev 6:12-17 we have the signs of the Coming and the dread of the people of the impending wrath of the Lamb. In Rev 11:16-18 we see Jesus the Lord is taking power, beginning His reign and wrath has begun.

The former is the 6th seal and the latter is the 7th trump. So unless wrath begins twice the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in concert. So if the seals all open, the trumps sound, and the bowls poured out consecutively, and they do/are, the trumps must be sounding in some concurrence of time with the seals.

 

53 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Just to give you a sense of my own thinking on a chronological timeline precept - I always feel led of the Holy Spirit to view chronology in a prophetic meaning. That which was, which is and which is to come - is the chronological sense as Revelation states at the beginning - but it is the prophetic sense of God's own eternal position that at times seems to come through in Revelation. I wonder if the overlapping sense of your precept is in that meaning?

Yes, I think that's quite reasonable allowing for the evidence to guide us to a conclusion of the order of things and not the opposite. Even in the entirety of what is to come hereafter investigation is required to discern order, if one is inclined. I don't think we can know exactly how it will play out until it occurs but the evidence in the above references is highly compelling. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Diaste
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[Kelly2363]

25 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Sure. 

Over the years I found certain events that either would have to be the same event or condition or those events would have to occur more than once. More than one occurrence of the same event is not impossible of course but it's pretty unlikely in my mind when it comes to this.

Like GT and all it's horrors occur only once. Jesus said 'never before and never after' to paraphrase. So we see mentions of those who experienced that time mentioned in Ch 7, 15 and 20. This alone doesn't prove a successive/concurrence but it's clear that one group is the same group and not 3 groups at different times.

Then there is this:

"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found." - Rev 16

This is such a similar description from the 6th seal and 7th bowl they must be the same. If it's a strict chronology and the 7th bowl comes well after the seals and trumps, the islands and mountains would have to be put back after the 6th seal so the islands could flee at the 7th bowl. That seems unlikely.

And:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11

"And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above." Rev 16

And:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake" - Rev 16

The characteristics of the events at the 7th trump and the 7th bowl are so similar they must be occurring near in time. 

In all this I am not saying they must occur at the exact time/space moment but are nonetheless concurrent on a continuum and in relative proximity. 

In Rev 6:12-17 we have the signs of the Coming and the dread of the people of the impending wrath of the Lamb. In Rev 11:16-18 we see Jesus the Lord is taking power, beginning His reign and wrath has begun.

The former is the 6th seal and the latter is the 7th trump. So unless wrath begins twice the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in concert. So if the seals all open, the trumps sound, and the bowls poured out consecutively, and they do/are, the trumps must be sounding in some concurrence of time with the seals.

 

Yes, I think that's quite reasonable allowing for the evidence to guide us to a conclusion of the order of things and not the opposite. Even in the entirety of what is to come hereafter investigation is required to discern order, if one is inclined. I don't think we can know exactly how it will play out until it occurs but the evidence in the above references is highly compelling. 

 

Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

What do you make of verse 22 in the above? 

“If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

Of course Jesus had just told Peter how he would die - and here in an almost off hand way the Lord tells Peter in response to Peter asking about John "this man"  - “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

One time when I was reading this passage I was immediately taken to Revelation and found myself in an unspoken thought about John writing that account from John, as well, later on, Revelation; and the very meaning of chronology when speaking in such finite terms as the book of Revelation speaks. John is the only apostle who wasn't martyred. Do you think that this is what Jesus was speaking of to Peter?

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

What do you make of verse 22 in the above? 

“If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

Of course Jesus had just told Peter how he would die - and here in an almost off hand way the Lord tells Peter in response to Peter asking about John "this man"  - “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

One time when I was reading this passage I was immediately taken to Revelation and found myself in an unspoken thought about John writing that account from John, as well, later on, Revelation; and the very meaning of chronology when speaking in such finite terms as the book of Revelation speaks. John is the only apostle who wasn't martyred. Do you think that this is what Jesus was speaking of to Peter?

Interesting. I have not thought of this, but now I will.

 

[Alive]

48 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Interesting. I have not thought of this, but now I will.

 

Yes--and a very good thing to consider.

Ss far as chronology within the book of Rev...I have been considering the concept of recapitulation a great deal lately, as well as the use of the word 'protos' in regards to the so called first and second resurrection and the first and second Adam/Man.

A series of or a kind of?

I've still not sure of solid ground, but slowly the onion is being peeled back.

:-)

[Diaste]

26 minutes ago, Alive said:

Yes--and a very good thing to consider.

Ss far as chronology within the book of Rev...I have been considering the concept of recapitulation a great deal lately, as well as the use of the word 'protos' in regards to the so called first and second resurrection and the first and second Adam/Man.

A series of or a kind of?

I've still not sure of solid ground, but slowly the onion is being peeled back.

:-)

Yes. The word protos is interesting as used. It's not really the 1st as in 1st place, it's more like '1st among' or primary or a place of importance. It's obviously not the 'first' resurrection as there was Jesus, Lazarus, the open graves at Jesus resurrection, the two witnesses. 

But I think like a series and the protos resurrection being the major or prime resurrection. 

[Alive]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes. The word protos is interesting as used. It's not really the 1st as in 1st place, it's more like '1st among' or primary or a place of importance. It's obviously not the 'first' resurrection as there was Jesus, Lazarus, the open graves at Jesus resurrection, the two witnesses. 

But I think like a series and the protos resurrection being the major or prime resurrection. 

I'm leaning toward those raised 'In Christ' in New Life and currently reigning with Christ. Key may be that Paul says we were raised with Him.

[Alive]

To add--in my estimation---a great deal of understanding is available to us that touches a vast scope is the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

Its no secret on this forum, that this is where I live.

:-)