missmuffet Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 On 3/14/2020 at 4:28 PM, Dennis1209 said: A pre-tribulation discussion: A careful study of the book of Daniel and Revelation makes me question my long held thoughts about the timing of some events. The Rapture doesn't trigger the immediate start of the tribulation, the confirming of a seven year peace agreement with Israel and the many by the Antichrist does. It now appears to me, there well may be a period of unspecified time between the Rapture and start of the tribulation. Where does it say or imply any or all the seal judgments are confined to the tribulation period? Some, most or all of them appears they could occur between the Rapture and tribulation, given the sequence of events and the Antichrist coming into his own? Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [emphasis added] If these martyred Saints are in the tribulation period; they wouldn't need to ask 'how long', as just like you and I, they would know by scripture to the day how long before Christ's second coming. I believe the following verse is talking about their breathern, the tribulation Saints. Revelation 6:11 (KJV) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [emphasis added] Therefore; could we be seeing the 'birth pangs' about to start in earnest, if this speculation and hermeneutic view is accurate? Thoughts?? The Bible does not say how long it will be from the rapture until the start of the 7 year tribulation so that would be speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystic_Pizza Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 285 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 134 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) I will leave all of the counting down of days/times/happenings to others who have studied it far closer than I have, and I will give the Reader's Digest Condensed Version (heh!) of things on bible prophecy I have read over many years...opinion, of course- none of us truly has definitive answers, but we can all do as Jesus said and read the 'signs of the times', as it were~ I always believed in pre-trib rapture, was raised in a church that taught this (and wouldn't allow you to become a full-fledged, card-carrying member unless you believed it too, lol!)- in my late teens, there were questions I had which I won't go into now, that made me wonder if this was really how it would play out- a big part of it had to do with so many Christians who weren't worried at all about any sort of...difficult times, beyond the normal, everyday things we all go through- because they were assured in a pre-trib rapture. I wondered then just how people would react if hard times really did come (as in partial tribulation period), when they were totally not expecting it. ANYhoo..... That being said, I had read somewhere years ago that we weren't meant to go through what would be known as "God's wrath" during the tribulation period, I'm thinking somewhere towards midway through- but that we would more than likely, possibly be going through the first half of the tribulation period. Long story short, I read a lot about the various reasons why, etc.- and I came to the conclusion that it could possibly be this way. Not saying it WILL be, but in my own thoughts, very possibly- and definitely not because I wanted it to be that way.... I guess one thing that might be a good idea, is to see - exactly - where the idea of a 'rapture' actually came from---I don't mean the brief mention in the NT about a word that could be construed to mean a literal rapture of believers before the tribulation/antichrist, etc., because let's be honest- people can take words/phrases and turn them into pretty much anything. I'm not saying everyone does this, but let me give an example: the NT verse in bible that says the antichrist would not be ...public, for want of a better word...until 'that which restrains him is removed'. Ok...nobody is completely sure just what the 'restraint/restrainer' is...and it could be several things, if we're honest. And we don't know which it is, all we can do is make various conjectures on what it actually means. But...we are basing the entire rapture before the trib idea on a few things such as this. I think that even though it is something I hope is going to happen that way, I would rather know - if it's possible - the truth, even if it's a truth I don't like. But then, I'm awful like that, lol. Something else to think about - and again, these are my own thoughts, and nothing more- but think about the apostles, and Paul, and others during those days. Outside of John who I believe passed away on the isle of Patmos while imprisoned there of natural causes (as natural as can be under the circumstances of imprisonment on a deserted island), the rest of the apostles and Paul were martyred in horrific ways. These were the ones who basically got out there and spread the gospel at the beginning, and...to put it bluntly, they certainly didn't get away with anything even remotely resembling even a semi-comfortable life. Paul said something about it when he said he felt sometimes like they were put on parade before angels and man (paraphrasing), and that if (paraphrasing again) this life was all they were looking forward to by being Christians, then they were the most miserable of creatures, etc.- It was pretty dismal, no doubt about it. They knew hard times, beyond what the majority of us have ever known. And I guess when it comes right down to it, I find it hard to understand why so many today think we're going to just get this....blessed life, and wait for Jesus's return before anything uncomfortable or really bad happens. I know everyone doesn't believe this way, and a lot of people are going to say or think, "Well, I don't think we're going to have a perfect life, and we know there is going to be trials, etc. in this life!". But what I'm talking about, is the -to me- somewhat scary thought of thinking that the rapture will occur before the actual tribulation or the antichrist or anything like that happens, or shows up- and then...if a person's thinking is that (rapture before anything else like that), it would leave someone terribly confused and woefully unprepared for anything. I know, I know, 'how does someone prepare', etc.- again, I can only speak for myself, and that would be total, utter, complete dependence on the Lord, His word, to see us through whatever. I won't lie, it's terrifying- not that I don't trust God, I most definitely do- but I'm also aware that 'trust' does not mean 'protection from anything bad happening'. Ok. You guys can all call me Debbie Doom now, lol~ To add a little edit here: I could so easily be wrong about so many things I said, and I will be the first to admit that, lol- I'm like most, not 100% sure or anything else- and my post is not meant to put down what anyone else thinks or believes, so...on THAT note, lol... Edited March 20, 2020 by Mystic_Pizza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 25, 2020 On 3/14/2020 at 6:28 PM, Dennis1209 said: A pre-tribulation discussion: A careful study of the book of Daniel and Revelation makes me question my long held thoughts about the timing of some events. The Rapture doesn't trigger the immediate start of the tribulation, the confirming of a seven year peace agreement with Israel and the many by the Antichrist does. It now appears to me, there well may be a period of unspecified time between the Rapture and start of the tribulation. Where does it say or imply any or all the seal judgments are confined to the tribulation period? Some, most or all of them appears they could occur between the Rapture and tribulation, given the sequence of events and the Antichrist coming into his own? Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [emphasis added] If these martyred Saints are in the tribulation period; they wouldn't need to ask 'how long', as just like you and I, they would know by scripture to the day how long before Christ's second coming. I believe the following verse is talking about their breathern, the tribulation Saints. Revelation 6:11 (KJV) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [emphasis added] Therefore; could we be seeing the 'birth pangs' about to start in earnest, if this speculation and hermeneutic view is accurate? Thoughts?? If we study chapters 4 & 5 and get the CONTEXT for the first seals, it changes the rest of the book. Turn back to chapter 5 and notice that John, looking back in time (in the vision) got to see the moment JEsus ascended back into the throne room, around 32 AD. He immediately got the book and began opening the seals. As of now, the first 5 are open. The first was to represent the church taking the gospel to the world. Seals 2 - 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. He failed. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Judgment is not coming until the final martyr. Seal 6 starts the DAy of the Lord and God's wrath. Therefore the church has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 30, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,629 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 3/19/2020 at 4:09 PM, abcdef said: The 10 nation division is not literal. "10" is symbolic of complete division. The "10" do not reunite, the statue shows that. They get weaker, are divided, and divided by the clay. They do not come back together and rule as shown in the beginning of the iron. The statue proves who the iron is and who it's leader is. ----- Who was the iron nation 200 yrs ago? There is only one answer. But for some reason......people do not want to say it. He has ruled and attacked Israel for the last 2000 yrs.. ---------- This is interesting. But its not Rome. Its Islam. And it's not earthly power, it's spiritual power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted March 31, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,251 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 673 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 12:17 PM, Mystic_Pizza said: I will leave all of the counting down of days/times/happenings to others who have studied it far closer than I have, and I will give the Reader's Digest Condensed Version (heh!) of things on bible prophecy I have read over many years...opinion, of course- none of us truly has definitive answers, but we can all do as Jesus said and read the 'signs of the times', as it were~ I always believed in pre-trib rapture, was raised in a church that taught this (and wouldn't allow you to become a full-fledged, card-carrying member unless you believed it too, lol!)- in my late teens, there were questions I had which I won't go into now, that made me wonder if this was really how it would play out- a big part of it had to do with so many Christians who weren't worried at all about any sort of...difficult times, beyond the normal, everyday things we all go through- because they were assured in a pre-trib rapture. I wondered then just how people would react if hard times really did come (as in partial tribulation period), when they were totally not expecting it. ANYhoo..... That being said, I had read somewhere years ago that we weren't meant to go through what would be known as "God's wrath" during the tribulation period, I'm thinking somewhere towards midway through- but that we would more than likely, possibly be going through the first half of the tribulation period. Long story short, I read a lot about the various reasons why, etc.- and I came to the conclusion that it could possibly be this way. Not saying it WILL be, but in my own thoughts, very possibly- and definitely not because I wanted it to be that way.... I guess one thing that might be a good idea, is to see - exactly - where the idea of a 'rapture' actually came from---I don't mean the brief mention in the NT about a word that could be construed to mean a literal rapture of believers before the tribulation/antichrist, etc., because let's be honest- people can take words/phrases and turn them into pretty much anything. I'm not saying everyone does this, but let me give an example: the NT verse in bible that says the antichrist would not be ...public, for want of a better word...until 'that which restrains him is removed'. Ok...nobody is completely sure just what the 'restraint/restrainer' is...and it could be several things, if we're honest. And we don't know which it is, all we can do is make various conjectures on what it actually means. But...we are basing the entire rapture before the trib idea on a few things such as this. I think that even though it is something I hope is going to happen that way, I would rather know - if it's possible - the truth, even if it's a truth I don't like. But then, I'm awful like that, lol. Something else to think about - and again, these are my own thoughts, and nothing more- but think about the apostles, and Paul, and others during those days. Outside of John who I believe passed away on the isle of Patmos while imprisoned there of natural causes (as natural as can be under the circumstances of imprisonment on a deserted island), the rest of the apostles and Paul were martyred in horrific ways. These were the ones who basically got out there and spread the gospel at the beginning, and...to put it bluntly, they certainly didn't get away with anything even remotely resembling even a semi-comfortable life. Paul said something about it when he said he felt sometimes like they were put on parade before angels and man (paraphrasing), and that if (paraphrasing again) this life was all they were looking forward to by being Christians, then they were the most miserable of creatures, etc.- It was pretty dismal, no doubt about it. They knew hard times, beyond what the majority of us have ever known. And I guess when it comes right down to it, I find it hard to understand why so many today think we're going to just get this....blessed life, and wait for Jesus's return before anything uncomfortable or really bad happens. I know everyone doesn't believe this way, and a lot of people are going to say or think, "Well, I don't think we're going to have a perfect life, and we know there is going to be trials, etc. in this life!". But what I'm talking about, is the -to me- somewhat scary thought of thinking that the rapture will occur before the actual tribulation or the antichrist or anything like that happens, or shows up- and then...if a person's thinking is that (rapture before anything else like that), it would leave someone terribly confused and woefully unprepared for anything. I know, I know, 'how does someone prepare', etc.- again, I can only speak for myself, and that would be total, utter, complete dependence on the Lord, His word, to see us through whatever. I won't lie, it's terrifying- not that I don't trust God, I most definitely do- but I'm also aware that 'trust' does not mean 'protection from anything bad happening'. Ok. You guys can all call me Debbie Doom now, lol~ To add a little edit here: I could so easily be wrong about so many things I said, and I will be the first to admit that, lol- I'm like most, not 100% sure or anything else- and my post is not meant to put down what anyone else thinks or believes, so...on THAT note, lol... Hi Mystic P, Well that's one of the most honest understandings I've heard in a while. There are some who are so "absolutely, positively, adamantly sure about their position" that a D9 bulldozer couldn't move them from their standing. But.....their standing is questionable, to say the least. Full of holes. An inferred position. Why, there is even a fella who claims to be the world's foremost authority on Daniel and Revelation...that there is no-one who knows more about prophecy than he does....... Wow! I have looked at and studied the various positions regarding the rapture/resurrection....the pretrib, midtrib, post-trib, prewrath....... and I'm fairly certain that one of them is correct...... Lol.... Because of Jesus's words in Matt 24, where He tells us, not them, but us, that "AFTER the trib of those days".......well, to me that means...."AFTER the trib of those days. I'm no scholar...I don't have a masters degree....didn't go to university.... but I'll stand on Jesus' words. To stand on a podium and, with a loudspeaker, declare my position with absolute certainty to the hearers......that's just not going to happen. I'd rather sit down with a few inquiring minds and reason with them....looking at the whole council of God, not just a few select passages that "could" make my position hold weight. So, I'll continue to study His Word. I'll continue to look at various arguments for whatever position one holds. But I'll "watch and be ready". I'll expect the worse and hope for the best. And I'll do my best to warn others...and encourage them to remain faithful. They can only kill the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted March 31, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 771 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,938 Content Per Day: 3.06 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) On 3/15/2020 at 6:28 AM, Dennis1209 said: A pre-tribulation discussion: A careful study of the book of Daniel and Revelation makes me question my long held thoughts about the timing of some events. The Rapture doesn't trigger the immediate start of the tribulation, the confirming of a seven year peace agreement with Israel and the many by the Antichrist does. It now appears to me, there well may be a period of unspecified time between the Rapture and start of the tribulation. Where does it say or imply any or all the seal judgments are confined to the tribulation period? Some, most or all of them appears they could occur between the Rapture and tribulation, given the sequence of events and the Antichrist coming into his own? Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [emphasis added] If these martyred Saints are in the tribulation period; they wouldn't need to ask 'how long', as just like you and I, they would know by scripture to the day how long before Christ's second coming. I believe the following verse is talking about their breathern, the tribulation Saints. Revelation 6:11 (KJV) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. [emphasis added] Therefore; could we be seeing the 'birth pangs' about to start in earnest, if this speculation and hermeneutic view is accurate? Thoughts?? John saw two groups of people in heaven, the great multitude n the souls under the altar, the great multitude consists of the resurrected n the living taken Alive in rapture, thereWill b an interval after the rapture n 1st seal opening. They actually ask God to revenge their blood earlier if possible. Edited March 31, 2020 by R. Hartono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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