BIG, BIG NEWS: RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE ON MARCH 14, 2023?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Those pretribbers just haven't just haven't figured out the the Church is in heaven before any seals are opened. They just don't see that the gathering is a gathering from heaven and earth. They don't understand that it is the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth and that the 144,000 first fruits are proof of this harvest. They don't see that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. But they do see that there will be a pretribulation rapture.

Are you lumping all pretribbers into one big group? It is good that you believe in "pretrib" but it is sad that you cannot properly delineate the "trib" or 70th week in Revelation. Just to help you out and save you years of time: the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not even start until after the angels give their warnings in chapter 14. 

How much cool-aid will YOU need before you understand the chronology of Revelation - before you understand the context of the first seal is Jesus ascending and sending down the Holy Spirit?  How can you know pretrib is truth if you can't even find the "trib?" My guess is, you cannot locate the rapture in Revelation either. Other than these points: GOOD POST!

[iamlamad]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:16 AM, Diaste said:

If one takes fragments of text it can twisted into any shape. But you go ahead with your interpretations.

Best be ready for the beast; he's coming for the church. 

No, don't be ready for the Beast; be watching for the Lord. He is coming before the Beast. Go back to 2 thes. 2 and understand it. Don't blow it off: understand it. You NOW verse 3b shows the man of sin revealed. You know from verses 6 through 8 that he cannot be revealed until the one who is restraining is taken out of the way. All you need to do is put these two facts together and come up with the solution: HOW does the man of sin get revealed in 3b?

[The Light]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

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Are you lumping all pretribbers into one big group? It is good that you believe in "pretrib" but it is sad that you cannot properly delineate the "trib" or 70th week in Revelation. Just to help you out and save you years of time: the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will not even start until after the angels give their warnings in chapter 14. 

Oh, gee, um, ah, er, ah, eh, wow, you are not even in the ballpark. The tribulation is over before Jesus returns at the 6th seal(you know, immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns). If you could only grasp the fact that a lunar eclipse has both a dark moon and a blood moon, you might have a chance.

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How much cool-aid will YOU need before you understand the chronology of Revelation

 Can you understand the chronology of Genesis 7?

Gen 7

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

² Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

³ Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

⁴ For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

⁶ And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

So Noah went into the ark and was told that seven days later it would flood which we see in verse 6. End of story. Do you want to see the story again with some different details. Okay, here.

Gen 7

⁷ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

⁸ Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

¹¹ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

¹² And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

There you go, same story, different details. Noah went into the ark,  and 7 days later the flood was upon the earth. End of Story. You want to see the story again.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

¹⁵ And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

¹⁶ And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

¹⁷ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

There you go, same story, different details. This time the story tells you Noah went in, and on the same day so did His family and all the animals. That lets you know that it didn't take Noah 7 days to load the ark. You also are not told that it floods 7 days later. It's just the same story with different details. You have already been told that it floods 7 days after Noah enters so it does not have to tell you again to be the same story.

The point of all this is that Revelation reads EXACTLY the same way. You get the same story 3 different times, but you are reading it as if all the details are in chronological order. We see Noah enters the ark and it floods. Then we see he enter the ark again and it floods again. Then we see Noah enter the ark again and it floods again. SO ARE THERE THREE FLOODS?

Please, I beg of you, spare me from the "don't change the intended order of the author, Moses". "Anyone that changes the order of Genesis will be proven false." LOL.

So Revelation reads just like Genesis 7, even if you don't see it. (And no, I'm NOT saying that one story is the seals and the same story is the trumps and the same story is the vials) I REPEAT, I AM NOT SAYING THAT. But you are presented the same story 3 times. And it is very highly unlikely that you will be able to figure it out.

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- before you understand the context of the first seal is Jesus ascending and sending down the Holy Spirit? 

The first seal is not Jesus. This is something you have imagined because you look past the Church in heaven in Rev 5. You also look past the fact that what John tells you in Revelation is the exact same thing that Jesus tells you in Matthew 24. When talking end times, you would think that John and Jesus would agree, and they do.

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How can you know pretrib is truth if you can't even find the "trib?"

The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel. THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE. Jacob, the 12 tribes, not the Church. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5, before the seals are opened. The fullness of the Gentiles will have come in and part of Israel has it's blindness removed. At the end of the 70th week, Christ will return for the gathering (The sixth seal, Matt 24, Rev 14)

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My guess is, you cannot locate the rapture in Revelation either.

Which rapture are you interested in, the Rapture of the Church, or the gathering from heaven and earth?

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Other than these points: GOOD POST!

Thanks brother.

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, don't be ready for the Beast; be watching for the Lord. He is coming before the Beast. Go back to 2 thes. 2 and understand it. Don't blow it off: understand it. You NOW verse 3b shows the man of sin revealed. You know from verses 6 through 8 that he cannot be revealed until the one who is restraining is taken out of the way. All you need to do is put these two facts together and come up with the solution: HOW does the man of sin get revealed in 3b?

You read it incorrectly. Paul is saying the day of the Lord comes after the revealing. And the day of the Lord and the gathering occur together.

Only pretrib butchers 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 into an unrecognizable mess.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry. It is what the scriptures tell us. Some people find it hard to understand. There are only TWO resurrections BY TITLE: the "first" or primary one - for the righteous, and the "second death" resurrection for the damned.

This is a simple concept.

No. Pretrib demands 3 and you know it. One pretrib. One post great tribulation. One post millennium.

If there are only two then no pretrib resurrection is possible as the first resurrection is those from out of within great tribulation. 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. Pretrib demands 3 and you know it. One pretrib. One post great tribulation. One post millennium.

If there are only two then no pretrib resurrection is possible as the first resurrection is those from out of within great tribulation. 

Where you are missing it: the "first resurrection" is not a resurrection that will take place at one point in time.  It covers ALL TIME as the resurrection for the righteous. It is a simple concept. I am amazed that some can't get it. 

Jesus was the first to be resurrected in this chief of resurrections. The church will be next. The Old Testament saints later. See how easy this is? 

Where you are missing it: those from within the great tribulation are INCLUDED in this resurrection but they are not the only group to participate. It is for ALL the righteous for ALL TIME.

Once again, s l o w l y: there are only TWO titled resurrections:

1.  the "first" or primary resurrection for all the righteous for all time.

2. The "second death" resurrection for the damned. There you have it.

TWO and only 2 resurrections BY TITLE, not by time.

IN TIME there will end up being several for the righteous but only one for the damned. 

In other words, change your thinking!

Edited May 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

You read it incorrectly. Paul is saying the day of the Lord comes after the revealing. And the day of the Lord and the gathering occur together.

Only pretrib butchers 1 Thessalonians 2:1-8 into an unrecognizable mess.

It seems, you are stuck and just spinning your tires. You admitted that in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED.

You admitted that he cannot get revealed until the one restraining him is "taken out of the way." 

It seems you can't yet admit that SOMEWHERE in verse 3a the one restraining is removed, departed or taken out of the way. 

Then, ONLY after the restraining power has departed, can the man of sin be revealed. It makes good sense. The restraining power is SO POWERFUL that he cannot and will not be revealed until after the departing comes FIRST.

By the way, His coming will trigger the Day of the Lord, not the other way around!  Coming FIRST  (then the rapture) and THEN the Day of the Lord.

One day you will be forced to change your thinking here too.

Edited May 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

Paul said the Day of Christ will not happen until the man of sin is revealed. He did not say the rapture of the Church will not happen until the man of sin is revealed.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come (The coming and gathering) UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The context is the the coming of the Lord and the gathering. NOT the coming of the Lord only. NOT the gathering only. BOTH. Because the coming of the Lord and the gathering happen at the same time AFTER the revealing of the man of lawlessness. 

20 hours ago, The Light said:

Great, the Church has replaced Israel, in your mind and heart. Has the Church replaced natural Israel. Can the natural branches be re-grafted?

Rom 11

¹⁶ For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

¹⁸ Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

¹⁹ Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

²⁰ Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

²¹ For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

²² Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

²³ And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

²⁴ For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Not sure what you're doing here. And I did not say the church replaced Israel. What scripture teaches is that any in Christ are the seed of Abraham. Then it follows they are also the seed of Jacob, who is Israel. The faith and belief of Abraham and Israel are counted as righteousness. Any who come to Christ are numbered among the seed of Abraham and Israel. There is no 'church' entity apart from this. I think where the confusion comes in is what we all call natural Israel and the land of Israel.

Natural Israel as concerning the grafting in is the olive tree in the above passage. The natural olive tree; which is spiritually fed by faith given by God and would be the same as the those in the faith and belief of Abraham. Meaning, God created His people beginning with Abraham. Abraham believed God and is considered righteous through that belief. This is the natural olive tree of faith and belief. 

In the above passage we see, 

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

²⁰ Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

and, "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." so it's clear this is all of faith and belief. Belief gets you grafted in, unbelief gets you broken off, repentance gets you re-grafted. Therefore the natural olive tree is the spiritual people of God, the seed of Abraham; all those in Christ. Ergo, this is spiritual and not temporal and has nothing to do with race or land.

The Land of Israel is the land where Jacob settled and was given to God's people as an eternal inheritance. This has nothing to do with race; it's a gift for all eternity to the children of the most High. So in the end there are two groups of people; those in Christ (the seed of Abraham, the natural olive tree), those who are not. This is regardless of race and region.

Many get caught up in the ancient ritual and liturgy of the Jewish people thinking the practices of those people imbued righteousness and sanctification, and this makes them a particular group of special interest in the eyes of our Father. This misses the truth of scripture in both the OT and the NT. It's faith and belief and it has always been so and no animal sacrifice no amount of animal blood has ever made a single person righteous. Righteousness only comes though faith and belief. 

In the end there are believers and unbelievers, seed of Abraham and seed of Satan, in Christ and not in Christ.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

. God will keep his promise to His CHOSEN PEOPLE and nothing you can say or do is going to change the truth of that FACT.

Yes. and His chosen people are are those in Christ, the seed of Abraham, spiritual Israel, the natural olive tree, the grafted branches. Us. You and I. And any else who come to Christ without prejudice.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

The pretrib rapture will happen because the Word says it will happen. The fact that the pretribbers do not understand the timeline, does not mean that there will not be a pretrib rapture.

I agree. There will not be a pretrib rapture because the Word does not call for one. The only evidence for a pretrib rapture is supposition, innuendo, rhetoric and assumption. The refutation of which is clearly stated in the existence of a gathering occurring after GT. The only one in scripture so stated as a gathering of the friends of Christ. If 'looking through a lattice' is the best pretrib has then a big group is set up for a major disappointment.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

So does that mean if natural Israel does exist, we go blind to facts?

Natural Israel is the seed of Abraham, those in Christ. Israel is the people of God, His chosen people. They do not approach the Father, the throne or heaven except through Christ our Savior. This is the way it is from time before, forever. Rituals, liturgy, the blood of bulls and the fat of rams do not impart righteousness. Only faith and belief in God and His promises impart righteousness. So then the chosen people of God are those in Christ. Again, that's you and I.

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." 

Abraham's seed is the natural olive tree and the natural olive is of faith not race, as you proved above.

Because the blood of innocent animals covered sin does not mean righteousness was granted. Christ's sacrifice covered the sins of the world for all time, forever. Yet scripture says,

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

This has always been the case.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. ... And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.""

22 hours ago, The Light said:

Ah, Church time. Here comes the Kool-aid. Context means nothing, context means nothing, context  means nothing. You are getting sleepy.

Why attempt to disparage? In the Revelation of Jesus Christ the letters are to the churches. Pretrib relies heavily on Rev 3:10 as a proof. That fragment of a passage is rock solid proof of a ticket on the early train, according to the doctrine. 

But the parts they don't like? Must be for someone else. Another group. Can't be the 'church'. Only Rev 3:10 and the other good parts are for the 'church' according to the doctrine.

This always comes to mind when I think of the mindset behind the pretrib doctrine. Maybe it's an inapt analogy.

“This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, ‘I’ve done nothing wrong," .

Giving into pleasures of the flesh, not cognizant of her personal faults. 

22 hours ago, The Light said:

Go ahead and wait for the man of sin and the battle to come. BTW, the battle is now.

I'm waiting for the Lord. I just believe Him when He tells me what to expect. 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, The Light said:

Oh, gee, um, ah, er, ah, eh, wow, you are not even in the ballpark. The tribulation is over before Jesus returns at the 6th seal(you know, immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns). If you could only grasp the fact that a lunar eclipse has both a dark moon and a blood moon, you might have a chance.

It seems you don't know what will even cause the days of great tribulation, much less know where in Revelation those days would be.  Your first step would be to find the "tribulation" or 70th week. When Jesus spoke to me (and audible voice) He said it (the 70th week) was CLEARLY MARKED in Revelation. I have told you over and over it is MARKED by the 7's: 7th seal to the 7th vial. 
Until or unless you learn this, we won't have much to write about concerning where the tribulation is in Revelation. 

Let me assist: What CAUSES those days of GT Jesus spoke of? It will be when the Beast an false prophet begin enforcing the mark and forcing people to bow to their image. Now, place close attention: The Beast and false prophet that create the imange and mark do not even SHOW UP until chapter 13 in Revelation.  But the days of GT don't start there. God is going to send a warning about the mark. That warning is in chapter 14. Therefore, the days of GT WILL NOT BEGIN until after that warning in chapter 14. 

Then notice: the beheaded (from the days of GT Jesus spoke of) will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15.  

I understand: you KNOW this: and you are not about to change what you know. All you are really doing in your posts is showing the readers what you THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. 

You must imagine that after John saw the vision, he wrote it out, then cut it in small pieces and put them all in a bucket, then drew out piece by piece and rewrote the book in the order in which he drew out. 

Light, I have a novel idea for you: why not just believe Revelation AS WRITTEN? Do you find it impossible to believe the order It is written in? 

My Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong. 

Light, sorry to say but your theories on Revelation will be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come (The coming and gathering) UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

The context is the the coming of the Lord and the gathering. NOT the coming of the Lord only. NOT the gathering only. BOTH. Because the coming of the Lord and the gathering happen at the same time AFTER the revealing of the man of lawlessness. 

Sorry, Diaste, but you are miles off here.  They were UPSET because they had begun to believe that the Day of the Lord had already started and they were no IN that Day.  WHY would this upset them? What if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE the DAY. That would cause then to think they were left behind or Paul was wrong. So they wrote to Paul and Paul answered.

Let me redo your notes so they fit the context: 

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come (The DAY OF THE LORD: that dark day of destruction) UNTIL [the departing comes FIRST]  and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed...

Paul's argument: when someone sees a very significant departing, and then sees the man of sin revealed, they can then KNOW that the Day of the Lord has come and they are in it. 

You are right, the THEME of the passage is His coming and the gathering or rapture of the church. 

Where you miss it: "the Day of the Lord" and "the gathering" is NOT the same thing in different words! Go back to Paul's first5 letter. The rapture comes first and THEN the Day of the Lord. Rapture, then wrath.

Since the THEME is the gathering, the gathering MUST be in this passage somewhere, and Paul had covered the gathering in the word Apostasia as the departing or the taking out of the way the power restraining.