Eschatological Hermeneutics

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

I so agree and it really clouds & muddies up the waters so to speak when trying to have a Biblical conversation and not a `this is my imaginings` etc.

So my approach is -

1. Recognising the specific divisions - `The Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God.` ( 1 Cor. 10: 32) Failure to do so is the MAJOR cause of confusion in Eschatology.

2. Specific Time-slots. God in His eternal purpose, has delineated explicit time-slots for each group.

a) Nation of Israel - Abraham to the Cross ........Trib.  (Gen. 12: 2,  Dan. 9: 24 - 27)

b) Times of the Gentiles - Babylonian captivity to Armageddon. (Luke 21: 24 - 27,   Jer. 25: 11,  Dan. 9: 24 - 27,  Rev. 11: 2)

c) The Church - Pentecost to Rapture.  (Eph. 3: 2 - 22,  1 Thess. 4: 15 - 18)

I see. The approach I'm referencing is one, or a combination, of the main perspectives on eschatological study. Do you have a literal, moral, allegorical or analogical view of eschatology? I think what you brought up is more along the lines of tenet or doctrine. 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Behold said:

Study Paul intensely instead.  "be followers of ME as i follow Christ", He wrote....= do that.

Become rock solid in "justification by Faith" theology,  and live to spread the Love of God as the message of the Blood Atonement so that others will find God's love for themselves.

Put  "end times" (study)= rabbit trail in your rear view mirror...... and keep the judgement seat of Christ in front of your eyes, till the day you are there.  

Well...

2 Thess. 1 Thess. 1 Cor. James. Jude. Peter. John. Lots of end of the age references. Not to mention Jesus in the Gospels and an entire book of prophecy on the subject.

I think we can do all of it. No need to ignore some scripture in favor of others. That's how we get prosperity doctrines, televangelists and cults.

What would be your general hermeneutical approach to scripture in general?

 

[Behold]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well...

2 Thess. 1 Thess. 1 Cor. James. Jude. Peter. John. Lots of end of the age references. Not to mention Jesus in the Gospels and an entire book of prophecy on the subject.

I think we can do all of it. No need to ignore some scripture in favor of others. That's how we get prosperity doctrines, televangelists and cults.

What would be your general hermeneutical approach to scripture in general?

 

Paul told you this.   "Be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ"..

So, here is how it works, if you want to be a deep Christian..... You have to recognize that Jesus gave about  75% of the NT to give to you through Paul.

He gave the other 4 Gospels and all the rest as the 25%.

So, there is a reason that one Apostle wrote nearly all the NT and whatever you consider as "doctrine for the Church".

Christianity is built on Jesus, but its from Paul that you learn what you have to learn to be deeply rooted in Truth and Doctrine and Faith.

For example, we know that "faith comes by hearing", because Paul wrote that.    We know that "all who call on the name of Jesus"..because Paul wrote that.   We know that "as many as received Jesus, God gave power to become the sons of God" because Paul wrote that.  We know that "Grace through faith without works" is because Paul wrote that.  We know to "believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth" because Paul wrote that... We know.. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to Gods mercy HE saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost....because Paul wrote that.    We know that to establish our hearts with faith....Hebrews 12:9 because Paul wrote that... We know that In  JESUS you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, because Paul wrote that.  We know we are seated in heavenly places in Christ, because Paul wrote that... We know that .. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ, because Paul wrote that.

we know, For Jesus is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.. because Paul wrote that..  We know that a Pastor is to be a man and not a woman because Paul wrote that... We know about the 9 spiritual GIFTS because Paul wrote that..  We know that Satan blinds the minds of carnal christians and unbelievers because Paul wrote that.. we know that God does not charge us for our sin anymore because he has already judged Christ on the Cross for them, because Paul wrote that... we know that we have eternal peace with God, because Paul wrote that.. we know that Christ has obtained eternal redemption for us, because Paul wrote that. We know we are a Temple of the Holy Spirit because Paul wrote that... we know that Salvation is a GIFT, because Paul wrote that.. We know that we have the Gift of Righteousness, because Paul wrote that...We know that Paul is our  EXTANT THEOLOGIAN because we are "in the time of the Gentiles" and Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles.

So, if you want to know nothing about the NT, then just live in The Revelation.  If you want to live in spiritual ignorance then live in Matthew.  

See, there is a WAY to "study to show yourself approved " and that way is PAUL.

Reader, If you dont do this, then you are like a plane trying to land.  You just fly around and around and you have nothing under your wheels.  They just spin.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Behold

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, Behold said:

Paul told you this.   "Be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ"..

So, here is how it works, if you want to be a deep Christian..... You have to recognize that Jesus gave about  75% of the NT to give to you through Paul.

He gave the other 4 Gospels and all the rest as the 25%.

So, there is a reason that one Apostle wrote nearly all the NT and whatever you consider as "doctrine for the Church".

Christianity is built on Jesus, but its from Paul that you learn what you have to learn to be deeply rooted in Truth and Doctrine and Faith.

Not necessarily true. These are the works that were canonized. I'm convinced Enoch is divinely inspired. 

11 minutes ago, Behold said:

For example, we know that "faith comes by hearing", because Paul wrote that.    We know that "all who call on the name of Jesus"..because Paul wrote that.   We know that "as many as received Jesus, God gave power to become the sons of God" because Paul wrote that.  We know that "Grace through faith without works" is because Paul wrote that.  We know to "believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth" because Paul wrote that... We know.. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to Gods mercy HE saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost....because Paul wrote that.    We know that to establish our hearts with faith....Hebrews 12:9 because Paul wrote that... We know that In  JESUS you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, because Paul wrote that.  We know we are seated in heavenly places in Christ, because Paul wrote that... We know that .. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ, because Paul wrote that.

we know, For Jesus is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.. because Paul wrote that..  We know that a Pastor is to be a man and not a woman because Paul wrote that... We know about the 9 spiritual GIFTS because Paul wrote that..  We know that Satan blinds the minds of carnal christians and unbelievers because Paul wrote that.. we know that God does not charge us for our sin anymore because he has already judged Christ on the Cross for them, because Paul wrote that... we know that we have eternal peace with God, because Paul wrote that.. we know that Christ has obtained eternal redemption for us, because Paul wrote that. We know we are a Temple of the Holy Spirit because Paul wrote that... we know that Salvation is a GIFT, because Paul wrote that.. We know that we have the Gift of Righteousness, because Paul wrote that...We know that Paul is our  EXTANT THEOLOGIAN because we are "in the time of the Gentiles" and Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles.

You aren't wrong, just not complete. I don't feel that any of us should judge any work that is of the kingdom.

"4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit with. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." - The Apostle Paul

"For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now has God set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22No, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God has tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked. 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it." - The Apostle Paul

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14That we from now on be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love." - The Apostle Paul

11 minutes ago, Behold said:

So, if you want to know nothing about the NT, then just live in The Revelation.  If you want to live in spiritual ignorance then live in Matthew.  

"

I know your works, and your labor, and your patience, and how you can not bear them which are evil:  that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the middle of the paradise of God.

 

9I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

13I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells. To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it.

 

19I know your works, and charity, and service, and faith, and your patience, and your works; And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches.

I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and are dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found your works perfect before God.  4You have a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches.

8I know your works: behold, I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it: for you have a little strength, and have kept my word, and have not denied my name. 12Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name. 13He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches.

15I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot. 16So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. 17Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches.

Whole lot of NT truths in 2 chapters of the Revelation.

11 minutes ago, Behold said:

See, there is a WAY to "study to show yourself approved " and that way is PAUL.

Reader, If you dont do this, then you are like a plane trying to land.  You just fly around and around and you have nothing under your wheels.  They just spin.

This is judgmental. You assume the only way is one way, your way. It's not well rounded neither does it account for the different gifts nor the offices of the congregation. We all are different parts of the body making it one in unity of the Spirit. 

[Behold]

6 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not necessarily true. These are the works that were canonized. I'm convinced Enoch is divinely inspired. 

 

Listen, its not possible for a bible believer to have any type of perfect agreement, or come into a harmony of understanding  of anything related to the NT, if one of us here,  does not trust the word of God.

So, as you are correcting the idea of the bible as being, as God would have it, then we can't agree.

I would never come to a public "Christian" forum and try to present any person here with the false idea that the bible is flawed, man made, missing books, ect, as that type of teaching casts DOUBT on the word of God, and i could never do that, as i know better.

 

B

Edited May 10, 2020 by Behold

[Justin Adams]

And what of Origin? He quoted the passage about all is God Breathed for edification and he included Enoch and many of the LXX books that were 'reformed' out of our bibles. We do not have the books that Yeshua and the apostles were well familiar with. Why? Because of Augustine and others who had their own theology about things and being an ex-Manichaean (they liked Enoch) he wanted the 'sons of Seth' theory to replace the Sons of God that transgressed in Gen 6. The list goes on and on...

...and on!!

[Eddy Crocker]

8 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

And what of Origin? He quoted the passage about all is God Breathed for edification and he included Enoch and many of the LXX books that were 'reformed' out of our bibles. We do not have the books that Yeshua and the apostles were well familiar with. Why? Because of Augustine and others who had their own theology about things and being an ex-Manichaean (they liked Enoch) he wanted the 'sons of Seth' theory to replace the Sons of God that transgressed in Gen 6. The list goes on and on...

...and on!!

This was the problem with the Catholic influences on the different canons of scripture that even had their influence even after Martin Luther in the Protest reformation. After the reformation we thought we were coming out of her the whore but still these poisons effect our scripture through traditions of men.

[Diaste]

19 minutes ago, Behold said:

Listen, its not possible for a bible believer to have any type of perfect agreement, or come into a harmony of understanding  of anything related to the NT, if one of us here,  does not trust the word of God.

So, as you are correcting the idea of the bible as being, as God would have it, then we can't agree.

I would never come to a public "Christian" forum and try to present any person here with the false idea that the bible is flawed, man made, missing books, ect, as that type of teaching casts DOUBT on the word of God, and i could never do that, as i know better.

 

B

I didn't say any of that. I said the works known as the Bible are canon. And that by the Catholic church. I didn't say it was man made nor had anything missing. What you fail to realize is that much of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles is directly from the OT. How do you suppose the Bereans verified what Paul said was truth? I'm pretty sure it wasn't a time machine or an interdimensional gateway. They checked Paul out by the OT. That's how they verified. So Paul's words are confirmed by all that came before. Before the canon do you suppose the Book of Esther was read? Enoch? Maccabees? Or any of the other dozens of books written by people down through the ages that had direct contact with the Spirit and heard from the Most High? Or do you suppose only Paul had the insight?

Did you know Jesus inspired the OT? Where do you think the Apostles got their information after Jesus was gone? How did they verify Jesus's words? 

Seems you don't 'know better'.

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

So Paul's words are confirmed by all that came before

Yes and unless you know the other books you will miss very much of what the apostles refer back to and when they quote those other books. Some scholar (who I forget) has compiled a list of over three thousand references in the new testament to much of which is lost to us from the LXX and ancient (not rewritten) Hebrew texts.

So if we do not see the seeds of references back to the Qumran scholarships and those earlier texts we are not well informed. Modern theology is sadly lacking. And to make sure this travesty stays in place, believers are frowned upon for reading extra canonical books. And so the charade continues. 

For sure, the Bereans and Yeshua and the apostles read it all.

Example: "Long ago and in many ways..." says the apostle.  From The wisdom of Solomon verbatim.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Eddy Crocker]

5 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes and unless you know the other books you will miss very much of what the apostles refer back to and when they quote those other books. Some scholar (who I forget) has compiled a list of over three thousand references in the new testament to much of which is lost to us from the LXX and ancient (not rewritten) Hebrew texts.

So if we do not see the seeds of references back to the Qumran scholarships and those earlier texts we are not well informed.

Jude 6 

⁶ And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This is just one example of scripture that had its roots in the book of Enoch. We would be foolish not to read the book of Enoch when the Apostles quote scriptures from these books showing their authenticity.

We suffer a lack of knowledge of Genesis the 6 th chapter about the fallen angels which were called the Watchers in the Book of Enoch. This shows why the flood happened because this why Gods way to free those bodies of those Spirits from inhabiting those bodies to spread their poison in the world.

This is why the Spirits that were cast out and went into the pigs and they drowned. Now those Spirits were bound from using those bodies to perpetuate their corruption in the earth.