What becomes of OSAS people who do not overcome?

[luigi]

In Daniel 12:2, at the conclusion of the beast's reign, a resurrection occurs in which there are those who awake to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting contempt. As this event represents the first resurrection at the conclusion of the beast's reign, when the Lord through His saints commences to reign on the earth (Revelation 11:15), would those then who awake at this time to shame and everlasting contempt represent those who did not overcome their carnal inclinations (sins)? If not, then who?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[R. Hartono]

13 hours ago, luigi said:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

To Daniel it was not revealed in details.

SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE : the 1st resurrection of all deceased Christians since the church era :

^{1 Thes 4:16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The 2nd resurrection of those beheaded in GT in Rev 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They^[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 3rd resurrection of all deceased MANKIND for the Great White Throne judgment.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

Quote

What becomes of OSAS people who do not overcome?

Well, I assume that by OSAS people you are referring to people who believe that once a person is saved, they remain saved, so I am responding with that understanding.

If a person was chosen:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5  He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So, to answer the question: "It just depends!" If one is among those chosen, then they are blessed with EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING. Is salvation a spiritual blessing?  What else happens to those chosen? They are holy and blameless before Him. If they are holy and blameless, then they have no sins charged against them. The were already adopted as sons (and daughters)  through their predestination. Notice too, that is says "we HAVE redemption", not that we might receive it, if we have some additional qualifications.

So, it is a done deal, eternal life is not temporary life or a maybe life, it is a gift of grace, not a loan kept by performance. Therefore, it is the same for OSAS people as it is for OSNAS people. It it not what they believe about their eternal security that saves them, it is whether or not He as adopted them into His family! The bottom line is that the chosen ones (those truly in the family of God) WILL overcome, OSAS or not!

Or did I miss something?

Now, a minor warning. If this ends up being just another argumenative thread about salvation, then it will be moved to the soteriology section. If it can proceed as something else, probably not. It is not clear to me, what the title question is fishing for!

[Not me]

It is the fall of Adam that needs to be overcome...

So what is it that overcomes that fall?

When this question is answered, what salvation is and is not will be known....

And the heart will rejoice..

For faith must stand in the power of God, not in the wisdom of man...

A fellow believer, Not me 

 

[luigi]

6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

To Daniel it was not revealed in details.

SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE : the 1st resurrection of all deceased Christians since the church era :

^{1 Thes 4:16} For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The 2nd resurrection of those beheaded in GT in Rev 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They^[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 3rd resurrection of all deceased MANKIND for the Great White Throne judgment.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/

 

Hi R. Hartono,

In Revelation 20:5 the Lord speaks of a first resurrection which appears at the conclusion of the beast's reign in Revelation 20:4. I would assume this resurrection to coincide with the resurrection in Daniel 12:2, which occurs at the conclusion of the beast's reign (time, times, and half a time) in Daniel 12:7. As such the question remains: who are those resurrected in the first resurrection who shall awake to shame and everlasting contempt? If these who awake to shame and everlasting contempt are saved in this first resurrection, it then makes sense to me that they will be those who did not overcome their carnal inclinations (sins), as many of those in the first churches were warned to overcome in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

[luigi]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

So, it is a done deal, eternal life is not temporary life or a maybe life, it is a gift of grace, not a loan kept by performance. Therefore, it is the same for OSAS people as it is for OSNAS people. It it not what they believe about their eternal security that saves them, it is whether or not He as adopted them into His family! The bottom line is that the chosen ones (those truly in the family of God) WILL overcome, OSAS or not!

Or did I miss something?

 

I do agree with you that those who are truly in the family of God will overcome. But not all OSAS will overcome, as many OSAS people today believe as did many in the early churches in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, where they could keep on indulging in their carnal inclinations. This then brings us back full circle to the first resurrection in Daniel 12:2 at the conclusion of the beast's reign, as to who the people who awake to shame and everlasting contempt represent? If these individuals are not those Christians in Revelation 2 & 3 who did not overcome their sins, then who are they?

[Refresher]

9 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If a person was chosen:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5  He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Yes agreed Omegaman, if a person was chosen then it's chosen...seems like if God says it and that settles it.

In addition, since we are chosen, then it is important for us to walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16-26

Walking in the Spirit

 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, ²¹ envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.  And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.  Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

[Don19]

9 hours ago, Not me said:

It is the fall of Adam that needs to be overcome...

So what is it that overcomes that fall?

When this question is answered, what salvation is and is not will be known....

And the heart will rejoice..

For faith must stand in the power of God, not in the wisdom of man...

A fellow believer, Not me 

 

 

First off, I don't believe Adam was created sinless. If it were not so, then one must explain why a sinless creature, with no inclination to sin, actually sinned. Rather, what Adam lacked was knowledge of good and evil. Hence, after he and Eve had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they became aware of their sin, and sought to cover their nakedness. Before eating of the tree, they were naked and unashamed. But when their eyes were opened, they died spiritually to God - as God told Adam he would surely die the very day he ate thereof.

So what happened with Adam is the very thing that happens on account of law. As Paul says, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Rom 7:11). So it was with Adam. He did the one and only thing God commanded that he not do, under penalty of (spiritual) death.

In Christ, we do regain something lost in the Garden, and that is the condemnation of sin. We are freed from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). We are freed from conditionalism! We are eternally secure in Christ! Not that we have no sin, but sin cannot condemn us, as we are fully paid for. God has saved us from the ability to choose between life and death. What's born of Spirit is spirit; and if we're born of the Spirit, we're dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (Rom 6:11).

And, yes, God created all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4). And as the Scripture says,

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

So it should not be hard to accept that Adam was not created sinless. Neither was Satan created sinless, as he was a murderer "from the beginning" (John 8:44). Man is totally unable to fulfill any conditions of righteousness. But God created sinful man so that He might redeem His elect from sin and death, that He might pour out His love and kindness on His totally undeserving elect forever, and exercise His righteous justice and wrath on the rest. Salvation was not remedial in any way but was God's plan from the beginning.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Don19

[branchesofHim]

51 minutes ago, Don19 said:

First off, I don't believe Adam was created sinless. If it were not so, then one must explain why a sinless creature, with no inclination to sin, actually sinned.

Interesting viewpoint. But God created all things good did He not? And even Lucifer, before he sinned was good. Even angels have a choice it would seem. It seems then that the choice to exalt one's self-will above the Divine's direction is the operative principle. Shalom.

[Not me]

1 hour ago, Don19 said:

 

First off, I don't believe Adam was created sinless. If it were not so, then one must explain why a sinless creature, with no inclination to sin, actually sinned. Rather, what Adam lacked was knowledge of good and evil. Hence, after he and Eve had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they became aware of their sin, and sought to cover their nakedness. Before eating of the tree, they were naked and unashamed. But when their eyes were opened, they died spiritually to God - as God told Adam he would surely die the very day he ate thereof.

So what happened with Adam is the very thing that happens on account of law. As Paul says, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Rom 7:11). So it was with Adam. He did the one and only thing God commanded that he not do, under penalty of (spiritual) death.

In Christ, we do regain something lost in the Garden, and that is the condemnation of sin. We are freed from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). We are freed from conditionalism! We are eternally secure in Christ! Not that we have no sin, but sin cannot condemn us, as we are fully paid for. God has saved us from the ability to choose between life and death. What's born of Spirit is spirit; and if we're born of the Spirit, we're dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (Rom 6:11).

And, yes, God created all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4). And as the Scripture says,

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

So it should not be hard to accept that Adam was not created sinless. Neither was Satan created sinless, as he was a murderer "from the beginning" (John 8:44). Man is totally unable to fulfill any conditions of righteousness. But God created sinful man so that He might redeem His elect from sin and death, that He might pour out His love and kindness on His totally undeserving elect forever, and exercise His righteous justice and wrath on the rest. Salvation was not remedial in any way but was God's plan from the beginning.

As your personal relationship with Christ continues to teach you all things, I wish you all good things in Christ....

A fellow believer, Not me