A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:47 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/27/2020 at 11:33 PM, not an echo said:

I must say, as I have been reading through your replies, you have done gone and made me cringe again and again.  If it was anyone but you wingnut-, I would think that he or she was just being closed-minded to my thoughts.

 

I'm not sure if that is good or bad, it doesn't sound like a positive, but I know when I've challenged my own thoughts in the past it made me cringe a bit too at times.  If it's bad, I apologize for that, I know I am blunt or direct so it does come off to some as aggressive.  I guess I just prefer to get to the point is all.  As far as the closed minded, that isn't the case, the problem to this point is you are not giving me any evidence that supports your claims in scripture.

Concerning your last sentence, pardon my being a little rhetorical for a bit, but...

It was not me that came up with the idea that one day there shall "appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).

It was not me that gave all the evidences that this would occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.

It was not me that came up with a Seven Sealed Book and the concept that something like this cannot be looked into until it is unsealed.

It was not me that ordered history in such a fashion that what Jesus said in the opening of His Olivet Discourse has characterized history for the last 20 centuries, the last 200 decades, or the last 2000 years.

It was not me that used the word "gathering" (II Thess. 2:1) or "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17) or "gather together" (Matt. 24:31) concerning what is one day going to happen with many of God's children.

It was not me that laid out the first half of The Revelation in such a strictly chronological order that it is not even possible to put it into a better order.  All I did was notice.

PAUSE

Can I help it because I have noticed this concerning the chronological order of The Revelation?  I mean, is it not entirely logical that if the 1st Letter pertains to those to whom it is addressed, and the 2nd Letter pertains to those to whom it is addressed, and this holds true through the 7th Letter, that we have a pattern?  Is it not entirely logical that if the 1st Seal is removed and what then happens is revealed, and the 2nd Seal is removed and what then happens is revealed, and this holds true through the 7th Seal, that we have another pattern, even a continuation of a pattern?  Is it not entirely logical that if the 1st Trumpet is sounded and what then happens is revealed, and the 2nd Trumpet is sounded and what then happens is revealed, and this holds true through the 7th Trumpet, that we have another pattern, even another continuation of a pattern?  Is it not entirely logical that at this point, with such a pattern, that it would be prudent to consider whether there is yet a continuation of this pattern, or a pattern?  As I see it, we have such a pattern here that is so in our face that to depart from it is tantamount to kicking dust on it, to throwing it out the window, or even denying the very thing that Christ, in Scripture, is trying to establish for us.  Are we going to let what scholarship has done to The Revelation so blind us?  We all know that there is mountains of scholarship on both sides of every fence out there.  More scholars are convinced by their "learning" that we evolved from lifeless muck than believe that it was God who created.  Further, learning Hebrew or Greek isn't the key to truly understanding God's Word in Hebrew or Greek any more than learning English is the key to truly understanding God's Word in English.  There are people that can speak poetry and sing rap in English, speed read and teach English, and the Bible may as well be in Swahili for them---they can't get it.  The first thing everyone needs to do when it comes to Scripture is to talk to Almighty God about it, and as disciples of His (Jn. 8:31-32), seek for Him to open our understanding (Lk. 24:45).  Then, study (II Tim. 2:15).  And, even after we have spent the rest of our lives upon this earth as students of His Word, you better know that one day, after having been in His very presence, we will be able to say one to another as the two did on the road to Emmaus, "Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the scriptures?  (Lk. 24:32).  One day wingnut-, I believe we will look at each other, and both of us will be saying this.  The Bible is like the ocean, and no one of us is ever going to get all it depths searched out.

UN-PAUSE

It was not me that set up The Revelation so that it is a key to the Olivet Discourse and the Olivet Discourse is a key to it.

It was not me that worded the opening three verses of The Revelation, or said in the last chapter, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  for the time is at hand" (Rev. 22:10).  Though, it may be me, through whom God conjured the logic that for most any prophecy that is fulfilled, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.

It was not me that inspired Joel with the prophecy that Peter appealed to on the Day of Pentecost, which bookends the era of the Church to the very day.  All I did was notice.

It was not me that saw "the little book open" in Revelation 10:2, which, in light of Daniel 12:4, 8-10---sums up like 2+2 = 4 to be the little book of Daniel.  Again, all I did was notice.

It was not me that indicated that the "time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18/20:11-15) will happen during the period of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15).

It was not me that ordered the geography of this earth such that what is in our Western Hemisphere equals one-third of the earth to within less  that one percentage point.

It was not me that indicated that with the sounding of the first four trumpets, one-third of the earth will be destroyed, nor was it me that set things up so that if this is what is to happen, the focus will once again be brought to bear upon the lands of the Bible days for Daniel's 70th Week---as things were for the first 69 weeks.

It was not me that made the earth a sphere, so that if the only survivors of Daniel's 70th Week are those on Israel's side of the earth, this will mean that at Christ's Second Advent, "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7), simultaneously, in person, and without any help from satellites, cellphones, or TV's.  Of course, God can effect this any way He would like.  Sometimes He just reveals to us what He would like. 

Well, if I don't stop, I won't be able to make any more installments.  I have gone somewhat further than I initially thought I would, and further than what we have talked about in this thread.  But, if you have looked at my other threads as you have indicated that you have, I believe my going further is warranted.

Back to the last statement in your reply, what is it that I have said that don't have scriptural support?

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:47 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 5:30 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your question, I am speaking about that that will occur at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  when the Church will be gathered (Matt. 24:31).  This is also at the same time Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5 when the Church will escape the period of the Day of the Lord (which is not Daniel's 70th Week, but includes it).  This happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.

 

All of which Jesus says is, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", so you continue to try and change it to immediately before the tribulation of those days rather than accept what He said.

As for I Thessalonians 5, there is not one mention of the gathering in that chapter, not one.  It would however have been a perfect place for Paul to have said something like, you won't be surprised like a thief, because you won't be here for it, rather than saying that it won't surprise them because they are not in darkness.

I think I will make a go for some Monday night installments...

Concerning your first sentence, I'm not changing anything, I'm just not seeing it as you see it.  Let me try to explain.

I understand the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) as occurring after the tribulation that Jesus speaks of relating to the era of the church in Matthew 24:4-14, or what I consider to be the first section.  One thing that I see is that the tribulation or thlipsin of verse 29 is not the megalE thlipsis of verse 21, but the thlipsin of verse 9, which is translated as "afflicted" in the KJV.  Said another way, if we had been sitting at Jesus' feet as He was speaking, it would have been easier for us to note that He spoke the word thlipsin in verse 29, which would correspond with His use of the same word thlipsin in verse 9, and not with His use of the phrase megalE thlipsis in verse 21.

Now to be sure, the disciples did not have a concept of the era of the Church, but now, we have the perspective of retrospect---and Paul's words---and The Revelation---and more.  Hope you will consider afresh my thread, Rightly Dividing The Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).  I would like to spend some more time with that thread and some of my others.  Perhaps one day.

Concerning your second paragraph, Paul had just got through talking to them about the gathering, which is all interconnected with what he said about being "caught up together" (4:17).  This is the same event that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 where He says that the angels "shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (vs. 31), which is the same "gathering together" that Paul speaks about in II Thessalonians 2:1.  Even with the chapter and verse divisions, which were not put there by Paul, it is easy to see that 4:13-5:11 is all a continuation of thought.

As for your last sentence, at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  Jesus will come as a thief for His Church, which will happen the same day as the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which Paul says will come similarly, "as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).  The "like a thief" element of this event will be especially so from the perspective of those left behind.  In my thinking wingnut-, consider your and my day today.  As fellow Christians, we are going about our day to day, but minded that Christ could come at any time---well, I am anyway.  I momentarily forgot that you do not see it this way.  But anyway, if He comes while I am typing this sentence, this last day of August 2020, I'm outta here.  He did not come as a thief in my experience.  I have been trying to live in a frame of mind of expectancy for years.  But, for those who will be left---that have not expected Him---He will have just come as a thief.  Likewise, this same last day of August 2020, the last seal will be opened and the Day of the Lord will have begun, meaning "the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17) indeed.  Also meaning, it came as a thief likewise---suddenly and unexpectedly in the experience of those who were left.

Another note, while I am here.  It does seem that there is some consistent concern over any degree of implication that Jesus will come as a "thief" in the experience of all, whether one is taken or left behind.  In light of what Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:4-8, I understand, but Paul does enjoin his readers to live in the light that they have.  I know for me, from the time that I was saved at ten until I was 25, I did not do much living in the light, and if Jesus had came at that time, I'm sure I would have been quite startled---for a second or two anyway!  I don't know, I can see me being startled for a second or so even now, truth be known, because it will happen so suddenly.  But get this---we who are saved are like the merchandise or goods that will be taken.  In other words, we will be what the world is robbed of, not the robbed.  So, things will be somewhat different for those who are left.  It's not going to be a good thing to be left.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 7:47 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 5:30 PM, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that the Church will experience and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

If the church being gathered prior to the tribulation is a matter of fulfilling bible prophecy, then it shouldn't be so difficult to produce the scripture that states that, right?  As far as what was prophesied concerning the Israelite nation, I've already shown you that regarding the remnant that will be saved it is not tribulation, but restoration.  You have yet to address Revelation 12, or Hosea's prophecy.

To be more precise, and according to my understanding, the Church will be gathered just prior to the beginning of the Day of the Lord, from which it will escape.  The Day of the Lord is not Daniel's 70th Week, but includes Daniel's 70th Week.  The gathering is part of the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which is what Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 concerns---every single verse.  Further, this is what the 6th Seal and I Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 concerns.  Moreover, this is what II Thessalonians 2:1 concerns.  And, the "gathering together" Paul here speaks about will happen before the apostasy and the "man of sin" is revealed, which is the basis upon which Paul tells his readers not to be troubled.

Concerning "You have yet to address Revelation 12, or Hosea's prophecy,"  with other things you have said, you almost seem to be painting the experience of the Israelites during this time as being on the order of a cakewalk.  Of course, I'm exaggerating some.  It seems that you keep having concerns over the basic distinctions that I have made between the Christian Church and the Nation Israel.  I'm really not a dispensationalist, and I also don't hate on any who are.  But, if I am understanding you correctly, you want it to be saved or lost with no semblance of a distinction.  As I see it, if you want to press for no distinction, if you are consistent, then the Church gets a cake walk too.  If you think that there is no distinction, then how do you have the Church going through all this tribulation, but the Nation getting to play ring around the rosie in the wilderness?  I know, I know---but just saying.  I do hope you are seeing where I am coming from.  And I apologize in advance if I have mistaken you.

On 8/10/2020 at 7:47 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 5:30 PM, not an echo said:

For example, do you not think that Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15-21 pertain to the Israelites?

 

There are only two groups of people, saved and unsaved.  For example, do you think that passage would have pertained to Luke, a Greek, if he happened to be there when these events unfolded?  Those who want to separate the Israelites from the Gentiles with this passage do so on the basis of those in Judea being told to flee, do you think it matters as to nationality or to what one believes?

In tune with what you are saying, I certainly believe that it would have pertained to Luke or anyone else who "happened to be there when these events unfolded."  Kinda like an evangelistic message is aimed at the lost, but it is of importance to anyone in the audience.  For example, just because I see the opening section of Jesus' Discourse as pertaining to the era of the Church, and especially Christians (whether from Jewish or Gentile background), there is a very serious message here for the unsaved world as well.  Likewise with the second section, which I see as pertaining to the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  The message here is especially for the Israelites (who arguably would represent the greater of the population), but also for any others in the mix.  If Jesus had of said Michigan instead of Judea (Matt. 24:16), His message would have been especially for those who are from Michigan, but there are always a lot of people in Michigan who are not from Michigan---and the message would have been of just as great of relevance to them.

Just a little sidebar on a memory I have of Michigan, seeing that that is where you're from.  My dad was stationed in the Air Force in Mackinac and we went on a trip there when I was small.  We went over the Mackinac Bridge which was awesome, and came back through that tunnel that is there, which was equally as awesome.  I will never forget that dad said that suspension bridge was 5 miles long.  Ever been there?

On 8/10/2020 at 7:47 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 5:30 PM, not an echo said:

As far as the Church, I believe we are in full agreement that it is one body, whether a saved Jew or Gentile.  All that come to Christ are a part of the same body.  Also, at the time of Christ's Second Advent, when the Israelites as a nation will experience salvation, I see them as becoming a part of the body of Christ as well...all equally God's children.  Same during Christ's Millennial Reign.  All who are saved will be equally God's children, and in my thinking, none will be "shunned from the marriage supper."

 

Ok, so for the sake of clarity, you don't see the marriage supper as taking place for those gathered while the tribulation is ongoing?  Typically this is a standard for pre-trib as to what they will be doing during this time, so I am just wanting to know if you disagree with that.  Because if you believe the marriage supper is taking place while the tribulation is happening on earth, then you are in fact shunning all those not present.

The Marriage Supper is mentioned just preceding Christ's Second Advent (Rev. 19:9).  Interestingly, at Christ's Second Advent, there will be the "supper of the Great God" (Rev. 19:17) that will be for all of God's children to witness, but certainly not for them to partake of.  This supper will be for all the fowls of the air.  After this, Satan will be bound and Christ will begin His Millennial Reign.  It is during this time of Christ's Reign that I would see the Marriage Supper taking place.

Concerning the standard pre-trib view that this supper will be taking place "while the tribulation is ongoing,"  when I was an adherent of the standard view, this seems to have been built off the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13).  Personally, I believe too much is read into this parable with the main point being somewhat lost sight of, that being, "Watch therefore..." (vs. 13).  So no, I do not see the Marriage Supper happening with the Church in Heaven during the time of the Day of the Lord and Daniel's 70th Week on Earth.  Rather, I see all the saved of all the ages, which will all have "part" (Rev. 20:6) in the first resurrection, also having part in the Marriage Supper.  Absolutely.  I'm not recalling Scripture that would really suggest otherwise.  But, my ole brain cells don't work like they used to sometimes.  And now my eyes are weary, so I guess I better let them get some shut eye.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 8:48 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 6:54 PM, not an echo said:

I believe we will agree that just because a prophecy has been fulfilled in part, this doesn't mean that it has been wholly fulfilled.

 

I am not sure what you mean to know if I agree or not because you did not reference a prophetic example.

It seems like it has been a while since I was able to make any Tuesday installments, but, because of Covid-19, circumstances for me have changed at both church and work, so...

My "prophetic example" was Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  Just because it has been fulfilled in part, this doesn't mean that it has been wholly fulfilled.  If I have understood you correctly, you are believing that it has been wholly fulfilled, or allowing that it may have been.

On 8/10/2020 at 8:48 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 6:54 PM, not an echo said:

When I consider the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, the surrounding chapters with what is said in the last chapter, Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15, and Revelation 10 through Christ's Second Coming, I can't unsee the relation to the 70th Week.

 

What you need to do is look at Daniel's prophecy on its own merit, what it says, and whether or not those things have taken place.  If your desire is truth, then you will have to address those questions regarding what is prophesied, objectively.

In my thinking, I must say "No" to what you are saying that I need to do.  I believe both of us, all of us, must look at Daniel's prophecy in light of what is revealed elsewhere in Scripture and whether it has been fulfilled according to what all of Scripture indicates.  As Jesus said to Satan when Satan said, "for it is written" (Matt. 4:6), we must take into consideration if anything more is written, in accord with Jesus' words to him, "It is written again" (Matt. 4:7).  Now, wingnut-, I hope you know that I would not be likening you to Satan.  But, don't be surprised if sometime I liken you to a nut. 

On 8/10/2020 at 8:48 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 6:54 PM, not an echo said:

So, I am in disagreement that Daniel's 70th Week (the last week) has been fulfilled at all.  Strong disagreement. 

 

Strong disagreement but no answers.  In this case silence is deafening.  They aren't difficult questions, all yes or no, and all directly related to what is stated in the prophesy.  So I wonder what it is you disagree with?

Well, finally, a good place in our journey for me to share some of my thinking on Daniel's prophecy.  So, let's get into this a little bit.  Of course, there's a difference in the 70 Weeks prophecy and the last, or 70th Week.  So, why do I see the 70th Week as not being fulfilled at all?

Let's not even look in the direction of history, though we could.  Let's not even look in the direction of scholarship, though we could.  Let's not even look at what appears to be the prevailing position of the Worthy Christian Forum family, though we could.  Let's just look at Scripture.

First of all, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He spoke of the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matt. 24:15) as His lead-in to what He says concerning a coming time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  The capstone to this time that Jesus spoke about is His Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon (Matt. 24:23-28 with Rev. 19:11-21).  Has this been fulfilled?  I'll let you draw your on conclusion, but before you do...

Luke's parallel account of Jesus' discourse speaks to this and says some things of relevance that indicates that these will be "the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" (Lk. 21:22).  Has this been fulfilled?  Again, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

In Revelation 10, John sees "a little book open" (vs. 2).  Concerning this book, it seems you have already drawn your own conclusion on it, that it isn't a book.  Anyway, in hard connection with this "little book" and central to the focus upon it are these words, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets" (vs. 7).

In the last chapter of Daniel's little book of prophecy, he is told concerning his book these words, "But thou, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:  many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased" (12:4).  Further, verses 8-10 read, "And I heard, but I understood not:  then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?  And He said, Go thy way Daniel:  for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;  but the wicked shall do wickedly:  and none of the wicked shall understand;  but the wise shall understand."  According to my understanding, or math, the "little book open" in Revelation 10 is the little book of Daniel, which interrelates more so than any other prophetic book with what is fixing to take place in The Revelation---and it contains the prophecy in question,.  Has what John saw from this point in The Revelation and beyond taken place?  While here, has anything that John saw beyond the opening of the 5th Seal taken place?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

Paul spoke about something that was going to take place before Christ's Second Advent, that being that "a falling away" would happen first and that the "man of sin" would be revealed, "the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).  Has this happened?  Don't forget that this man of sin is to be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).  Again, has this happened?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

The "little book open" is the focus of all of Revelation 10.  The very next thing we see concerns "the Temple of God" and the occurrence of "worship therein" (Rev. 11:1).  After this, the very next thing we see concerns two 3-1/2 year periods of time, which would equal seven years of time, or a week of years.  The much discussed (by our generation) Temple of God is presently non-existent.  Is another one going to be built?  It seems that you have done drawn your conclusion on this, that the temple John is writing about in Revelation 11:1 is the temple of our body.  On this, we will just have to agree to disagree.  But, Paul gives us a little commentary on some worship that is occurring in some  future temple of God.  Concerning the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" he says, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4).  Has this happened that Paul is talking about?  Is it the rebuilt Temple of God in Jerusalem or the temple of our body that this man of sin and son of perdition is going to sit in?  Once more, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here.  But, whatever the case, has this been fulfilled?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do, don't forget that in close connection with this man of sin and what he will do, Paul says that he will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).  Once again, has this been fulfilled?  Once again, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

Back to the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15).  As I see it, the words "whoso readeth" are not alluding to that person who may be reading the Olivet Discourse at the time, but that person who reads the prophecies of Daniel.  As I see it, we have some good information given us in Daniel 9:27 with which to do some math.  And, again (forgive me for being such an echo tonight), Jesus' words concerning this "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is His lead-in to what He says concerning a coming time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (Matt. 24:21).  And again, the capstone to this time that Jesus spoke about is His Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon (Matt. 24:23-28 with Rev. 19:11-21).  Once again, has this been fulfilled?  I'll let you draw your on conclusion, but before you do, consider my following view of some other things that I feel interrelate with Daniel's 70th Week prophecy...

One of these days this world is going to come to a close.  As I see it, that is what the Seven Sealed Book that John saw God holding in His right hand is all about (Rev. 5:1).  You've just got to know that a book---sealed with seven seals---being held by Almighty God---in the throne room of Heaven---around which so much attention is being given---would have to be a most important book.  As I see it, and in harmony with the opening three verses of The Revelation (its foundation), the seals of this book---every one of them---pertain exclusively to the era of the Church.  The New Testament Church was not a part or factor in the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy.  It would not be a surprising thing if the Church was not slated to be a part or factor in the fulfilling of the 70th Week---even if untrue.  Based on the evidence as I see it, I believe it to be certainly true.  As many believe, the Church will be raptured at the opening of the 6th Seal, and for me, at the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30-31), after which the Seven Sealed Book, which I believe could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD will be opened.  The Day of the Lord is what this book is all about---every single page.  Upon its opening, what transpires---along with what just transpired---will effect a major portion of a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  The same day that the rapture occurs, the first four trumpets can be sounded (Rev. 8).  I'm convinced they will be.  There is no related time frame given that would prohibit such a view.  In harmony with Scripture and other evidences, I am also convinced of the possibility that it is what is in our hemisphere that will be the "third part" destroyed at this time.  And, there will be some other effects.  This would mean that two major elements of the world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week may be taken care of in very short order, even within a day.  These two elements would be the removal of the Church and what is in our hemisphere, so that for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's prophecy, the focus will be brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---AS DURING THE FIRST 69 WEEKS.  As soon as the rest of the stage is fully reset (Rev. 9), John is shown the little book of Daniel open (Rev. 10), whereupon we immediately find the first real evidences that the 70th Week has indeed begun (Rev. 11).  This understanding brings to light another interesting possibility relating to Christ's Second Advent, the event which will bring Daniel's 70th Week to a close.  That possibility is that "every eye" will see Him simultaneously and in Person in a very natural way, as there won't be any eyes left in the world at that time except those on Israel's side of the earth.  Said another way, as the sun is very visible to every eye in Israel's hemisphere at noon time in Israel, so will THE SON be very visible to every eye at this time.  And, without any help from man's technology.  Of course, God can effect the thing of "every eye" seeing Christ simultaneously and in Person any way He wants to.  Sometimes He just reveals to us how He wants to. 

This is some of what I am seeing relating to the future, all rooted in what we find in Scripture.  With this understanding there has been such a coming together of the puzzle pieces of prophecy, that for me, nothing else even compares.  Am I right or wrong?  I may be wrong.  And, even if I'm right, partially right, or on the right track, it's not something that I really desire to argue about.  Rather, my putting this forth is just something that is really on my heart to do, something for my other brothers and sisters in Christ to consider.  Beyond that, my goal would simply be to help those who are interested to understand more fully what it is that I am seeing and how it will hold up under close Bible scrutiny.

Back to my post that prompted your reply wingnut-, based upon the foregoing and more, I am in disagreement that Daniel's 70th Week has been fulfilled at all.  Strong disagreement.  But, I will never hate on you, or anyone else, if you don't see it the way I do.  This is merely the way that I understand Scripture concerning this particular subject.

About forgot---Concerning the "more" in the preceding paragraph, I haven't mentioned yet that I see Daniel 9:24-27, or Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, as being the hub around which chapters 7-12 revolve.  I've not seen any evidence that you or any others in the Worthy Christian Forum family have ever heard such a perspective as this suggested before.  I would be highly interested if anyone has.  I am also highly interested when I see evidences that others are seeing some things like I do.  I've not yet found anyone in print or in the web world who has a view anything like my own.  But, what I feel that God has helped me to see has done more for my understanding than any other view that I have heretofore had exposure to.  In accord with my avatar, I am not an echo.  And mine is A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 9:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 8:08 PM, not an echo said:

I believe you would have to know that I would not suggest that Jesus gave bad information.

 

Of course, I don't believe for a moment you would think that.  Which is why it makes no sense that you would suggest that when He says it is after the tribulation of those days you seem to read it as before the tribulation of those days.  As I've pointed out now several times, nowhere after this point is there any more talk about tribulation, so there is no scriptural reason for you to do so.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Can't hardly believe it's the weekend again.  Had a little scare late yesterday and throughout today.  My son came up with bad congestion, coughing, a 100.5 fever, and about everything that nobody is wanting at this time.  We have had a very busy and frustrating day today trying to get him the attention he needs and tested for COVID-19.  In the end, he tested negative!  Whew, and praise the Lord!  Hope all in the Forum Family are doing well.

Concerning your above reply, I had been speaking about what I refer to as Christ's Sign Appearance in Matthew 24:29-31.  Let me emphasize again that I see this as a singular, very quick occurring event that intersects the time of the end of the era of the Church and the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  Everything Jesus speaks of after He turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance concerns this event, through to the end of the chapter.

A primary reason I come to the conclusion that this event happens at the end of the era of the Church and before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week is because of how this harmonizes with what we find in The Revelation---which I see as a key to understanding The Olivet Discourse, and vice-versa.  As I have often explained, I see the seals of the Seven Sealed Book as pertaining exclusively to era of the Church and the first four paralleling what Jesus spoke of in the opening of His discourse.  Note that it is immediately after the tribulation effected by the four horsemen of the first four seals (and attested to by the martyrs of the 5th Seal) that we have the opening of the 6th Seal and an appearance of Christ (Rev. 6:15-16), all of which corresponds with Matthew 24:29-31.  Further, it is on this day that the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6:17).  As everything shapes up to me, the Day of the Lord includes Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:1-3ff), which does not begin for at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) and maybe longer (Rev. 9:15).  This is all in tune with what we find in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, when Matthew 24:29-31 is understand to be about the intersecting event of His Sign Appearnce (vs. 30) and not His Second Advent.  Important to realize is that the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---whether it be at His Sign Appearance or His Second Advent, He will be seen with "power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30).

On 8/10/2020 at 9:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 8:08 PM, not an echo said:

A lot revolves around the many differing views of what I have been referring to as "the intersecting event"

 

Because it appears to be an invisible event you speak of so it is unconvincing to all of us who are still waiting for a single scripture to support it.

I don't see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) as an invisible event at all.  Now, I'm probably going to surprise some with what I am fixing to say, but I also don't see any real scriptural support that Christ's return for the rapture of the Church will be an invisible event.  But, I do see the following, most of which I am going to copy and paste from a post of mine on page 18 of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/):

In my years of contemplating the time of Christ's Sign Appearance, I have noticed something that I believe needs to be understood just a little differently.  What I am referring to is the common belief that Jesus will return invisibly at the rapture.  According to the evidence of Scripture, it needs to be understood that for those left behind who may not see Jesus, it will be because He is NOT visible instead of INvisible.  By this I mean, not visible to anyone outside of Israel's hemisphere.  What I am getting at is easily illustrated by something all of us observe regularly.

Because the earth is a sphere, the sun is not visible to everyone on the earth simultaneously.  For example, when it is noon in Israel, the sun is not visible to anyone in the United States, however, it is very visible throughout the hemisphere of which Israel is a part---and vice-versa.  So, while the sun is often not visible, it is never invisible.  Now, THE SON can be invisible if He wants to be!  Or, visible to some while at the same time invisible to others or whatever He wants!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do, is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a "thief."  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the nature of Christ's Sign Appearance, when He also comes for the Church (Matt. 24:42-44, Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 4:16-5:4).

Of course, at Christ's Second Advent, "every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7).  And, God can effect this however He would like.  But, I see evidence of an interesting possibility relating to this also.  With the sounding of the first four trumpets (Rev. 8:6-12), the "third part" is repeatedly said to be destroyed and/or affected.  If this destruction connects primarily with what is in our hemisphere (which equals 1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point), and this is taken out of the picture (or off the world's stage) for the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the only eyes left upon the earth at the time of Christ's Second Advent could easily be those in Israel's hemisphere.  Meaning...well, think about it.  I have a thread relating to this entitled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  The possibilities relating to these first four trumpets have engaged me ever since I first thought of this, years ago.  I had about forgot that this was my first thread ever on Worthy Christian Forums. 

On 8/10/2020 at 9:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 8:08 PM, not an echo said:

According to my understanding, there is coming a time (and it may be before I click on Submit Reply) when God will determine that it has been enough.

 

If you are referring to imminency, that has more holes in it than swiss cheese as well.  The disciples certainly did not teach it or believe it, I could list numerous examples of things they were told would happen that make this impossible.  For example, they knew Peter would die beforehand, they knew the temple and the city would be destroyed beforehand, and so on.

I would just ask that you look at my thread on this, The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return for the Rapture of the Church (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/255168-the-imminency-of-christs-sign-return-for-the-rapture-of-the-church/), which, from what you have said, I figured you had.  I know that I speak to some of your concerns there and I feel that I give a very fair treatment of this.

Got to turn in for the night.  I had wanted to get further, but I messed up and lost a lot of my post when I tried to cut and paste.  Ugh...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
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[douggg]

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

I had been speaking about what I refer to as Christ's Sign Appearance in Matthew 24:29-31.  Let me emphasize again that I see this as a singular, very quick occurring event that intersects the time of the end of the era of the Church and the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  Everything Jesus speaks of after He turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance concerns this event, through the end of the chapter.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to the Jews who will go through the Great Tribulation.    (basically, the second half of the 70th week).

Differently,

Matthew  24:32-51, the remainder of Matthew 24 is a message to Christians of how to avoid going through the Great Tribulation - via the rapture.

 

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning 1.

According to my understanding, Matthew 24:27-28, is of Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 19:11-21), which concludes what Jesus says in His discourse relating to Daniel's 70th Week, the account of which begins in verse 15.  Then, verses 29-31 begins His focus on what I have been calling the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  which will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  My scriptural support for this position revolves partly around how all of this dovetails with what we see in The Revelation.

 

Well you lost me right there, and it doesn't matter how many times you say it.  You are reading something into scripture that just isn't there and have built a theory around that rather than just reading what scripture actually says.  What I believe fits perfectly, and I don't have to change a thing or read anything into scripture to get there.  Our biggest point of difference is that you read something in that isn't there, and what I believe is based on what scripture actually says.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Hope everyone is having a blessed Labor Day!  Looks like I may be able to labor  a bit today on a few more installments. 

Concerning your above reply wingnut-, I must disagree with you.  I can't help what Scripture reads.  Everything would be somewhat different if Jesus hadn't said, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  What's happening here is not that I am "reading something into scripture that just isn't there" but that my understanding of what Scripture reads is somewhat different than yours.

To help you see better the simplicity of what I am understanding, try this:  From Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, begin at the first (24:4).  From the get go, what Jesus said has characterized Church era history and continues to do so.  Connections with the era of the Church are easy to see through verse 14.  Now, there is coming a day when what Jesus speaks of in verse 15 will come to pass.  He gives instructions for those who see this, and everything related to this will have its climax in Christ's Second Advent (vss. 23-28).  Through verse 28, what we have is a survey, given by Jesus, of what the future was going to hold from the days of His first disciples, until His Second Advent---in order.  At this point, Jesus turns His attention to an event He speaks of as the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  This is an event that will intersect history (fair enough?), and everything He says after He turns His attention to this event, relates to this event, through to the end of the chapter.  Though there will be attending phenomena and ripple effects, the premier focal point of this intersecting event will be "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."

All I have done so far is to affirm what Jesus said and the order in which He said it.  In review, Jesus speaks to His disciples about what history is going to hold and then of an intersecting event.  All I am doing, and based upon many evidences from Scripture, is locating the intersecting event of which He speaks as occurring between verse 14 and 15, between what I see as the end of the era of the Church and the beginning of the time of Daniel's 70th Week.

Let's just say for a moment that Jesus' discourse is as you say you are seeing it, with all of Matthew 24 being historically chronological.  If what He says in verses 29-51 pertains to nothing but His Second Advent, what is your take on His statement in verse 33, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors."  Would not "all these things" at least include what He had just got through talking about?  And, if so, according to your understanding, this would have Jesus saying that when we see the end, the end is near, or, when we see Him coming, His coming is near.  Does this make sense to you?

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

Said another way, I see a dividing line of thought between verse 28 and 29, because we see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6, but His coming "as the lightning" for the battle of Armageddon coming much later, in Revelation 19.

 

That's strange, considering where in the Olivet discourse it is found.  When you read it in context, funny how Jesus relates it to people trying to mislead others regarding whether the Lord has arrived or not.  It would seem He is making it clear that there is no mistaking His coming.

 

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

There certainly won't be any mistaking Christ's Second Advent.  However, I believe it is a mistake to confuse His Second Advent with what He refers to as the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  This will be the sign of His pending Second Advent, which is His answer to the disciples' question, "what shall be the sign of Thy coming" (Matt. 24:3).

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Then of course there is what Paul said, and ironically this is one of the passages you have attempted to change His coming into your alternate event.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

 

Please explain how your alternate event can result in the end of the lawless one, just by the appearance of His coming, and then 7 years of tribulation follow in which the lawless one would be a crucial figure?

Can't have it both ways, it is either one or the other.  This is why attempting to change a known event such as His coming into anything else falls apart.

Concerning your last three sentences, the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" does not result in the end of the lawless one.  No, and I have never suggested that it does.  The lawless one will not even be recognized at this time, but afterwards.  Said another way, it is not Christ's sign appearance that will result in the end of the lawless one, but the appearance of Christ at His Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).  Of course, both the Sign Appearance and the Second Advent will involve an appearance, but not the same appearance.  As I am understanding what Jesus said and the other evidences, there is no getting around this, not that I would want to!  In my concept, the thing of Christ's Sign Appearance and Second Advent is kinda like what many have experienced at a concert.  Imagine if you are in the vicinity of the tour bus and you get to see the star going in or out of it.  That appearance of the star would be a sure sign that the concert is still on as planned.  And, you will know that before the night is done, every eye (including yours!) shall see him on the stage.  Just a little side bar---At Christ's Sign Appearance, the Church gets a back stage pass! 

Rather than as you are saying, "This is why attempting to change a known event such as His coming into anything else falls apart",  according to my understanding and all the evidences of Scripture, everything comes together beautifully.  Similar to what I have said before, if you are ever able to see past what you are presently seeing, I believe you are going to really come to appreciate what I have been putting forth.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning 2.

No.  Just because it is a sign primarily for the Israelites, this does not mean that they alone will see it.  But, only the 144,000 will be converted, or sealed.  They will be the firstfruits of the Israelite nation (Rev. 14:1-4, esp. vs. 4), which will experience salvation at Christ's Second Coming.

Concerning your last sentence, I have been looking for a place in the Bible where the word "tribes" refers to Gentiles.  Maybe I will find it when I have more time.  Have you found a place?  Of course, we know that the word "tribes" is used repeatedly concerning the Jews, and "all the tribes" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:30 is another point of convergence with "all the tribes" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:4.  

 

My friend, you cannot conclude that the 6th seal is the same event as the one in the Olivet discourse and then disregard what is said from one of those two accounts.  The fact is simple, in Revelation it specifically states that EVERYONE sees this and reacts to it.  Why are you trying to split the Jewish people off as though what is said at the 6th seal has no application, or that what is said in the Olivet discourse has no application for Gentiles?  It is either the same event or it is not, and either way everyone is addressed.  In regards to the Jews specifically, maybe the question you should ask yourself is why if what you say is true they would wait around in Judea to "SEE" the abomination of desolation if they are aware of what is going on 3.5 years before it takes place?

I don't really know where you are coming from here, except that I can tell you are still mistaking me somewhat on where I am coming from.  I believe Jews and Gentiles alike will see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  I have said on various occasions that Luke's account of this event is like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal, and it looks like to me that Jew and Gentile alike will witness this.  And, I would certainly suggest that Christ's sign appearance will strike fear in Jews and Gentiles alike.  But, according to Scripture, only 144,000 Jews will be saved at this time (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 7:4).  I would say that these were God fearing Jews, just not having accepted Jesus as the Christ until the sight of Him as the Lamb at the right hand of God (Rev. 6:16)---which is evidently the sign.  Also, in response to my mentioning of the "tribes" in Matthew 24:30, you replied, "I think it is pretty obvious from the response of the earth's inhabitants, that the tribes of the earth mentioned in the Olivet discourse include all people."  I still haven't found that place in Scripture where the word "tribes" refers to Gentiles.  Again, have you found a place?  Perhaps some unsaved Gentiles will be saved at this time as well, but I don't see evidence of this.  As far as the "great multitude, which no man could number" of Revelation 7:9-17, I see these as being the just resurrected and the raptured Church.  Concerning these and the phrase "great tribulation" of verse 14, I see two possibilities here, as reflected by my Proposition Z in my opening post of this thread.

Concerning your last sentence, I wouldn't say that it's like the 144,000 "would wait around..."  As for the rest, how does one explain what corrupted fallen people are liable to do?  After God had delivered the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage, how does one explain their faltering in the face of the miracles they had seen?  How does one explain Peter's denying of Jesus and the others fleeing?  Really, all of this just bespeaks the fallen condition of humanity.  In view of this, a guess (concerning your last sentence) would be that whatever glimpse some get of Jesus' sign appearance, the memory of it will begin to fade (as memories inevitably do), especially in the face of everything else that will transpire in the months leading up to the Antichrist's rise to prominence.  And, there is certainly going to be a lot to transpire.

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

Further, there is the gathered "elect" (the Church) spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:31, which is another point of convergence with the "great multitude" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:9.

 

Again, you are reading something into scripture that is not there.  The great multitude are people who have died during the tribulation as a result of the war on the saints.  At some point you need to address Revelation 12 and the group that "holds to the testimony of Jesus" while the Jewish remnant is protected in the wilderness.  Or the saints from chapter 13 the beast is waging war on, where do you think they go after they are killed?

Concerning your statement, "The great multitude are people who have died during the tribulation as a result of the war on the saints," where did you get this?  The great multitude is said to have come out of great tribulation, but it is not said of them that they died as martyrs, or even that they died as a result of great tribulation.  Also, I know that you see Daniel's 70th Week as being already fulfilled, but the thing of great tribulation being pigeonholed as Daniel's 70th Week by so many is one of the reasons I prefer to make a distinction between the two.  Said another way, Daniel's 70th Week will certainly be a time of great tribulation, but all great tribulation is not Daniel's 70th Week.

Concerning "At some point you need to address the saints of Revelation 12" and "the saints from chapter 13",  I see these as being the 144,000 and others that are at that time being convinced and come to faith in Christ.  As to where they go after they are killed, their souls will go to Heaven, same as those who are martyred that turn to Christ instead of giving allegiance to the beast.  We see them in Heaven in chapter 14:1-5 and 15:1-4.

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

Any thing that I say that appears to stem from dispensationalism is merely incidental.

 

The reason I bring it up is because your theory is largely based on the exact same principles, mainly viewing or dividing up the great tribulation based on the Jewish people.  The great tribulation has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with judgement on the wicked, doesn't matter what nationality.  In fact, when you see the 144,000 sealed, what you should see is that they are being protected from the judgments, not subjected to them.  When you read Revelation 12, you see the remnant being taken out of the dragon's reach, not subjected to it.  Protected from God's actions, protected from the enemies actions, yet somehow the tribulation is all about their race and not about who is wicked and who belongs to God?

I'm kinda confused by your seeming back and forth.  Earlier you said, "The great multitude are people who have died during the tribulation as a result of the war on the saints."  Now you are saying that "The great tribulation has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with judgement on the wicked, doesn't matter what nationality."  Then you indicate that "When you read Revelation 12, you see the remnant being taken out of the dragon's reach, not subjected to it."  So, is everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, "Protected from God's actions, protected from the enemies actions"?  I know I must be misunderstanding you some way.  It is almost like you are trying to convey that that period of time will be easier on God's children than this present time.  Yet, we read what Jesus said and what John saw.  Whatever is being believed about all of this, it must be understood in a way that it will harmonize with all that Scripture has to say on it.  Now, we do know that God can protect in any way He sees fit, whether it be the Israelites during the 10 plagues or the 144,000 during the locust swarm of the 5th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:4).  We observe such all the time, for instance, how the tail of a tornado can take out the middle house of three, or how one's life can be miraculously spared by someone's sudden intervention.  And, we also understand salvation and its assurances.  So for me, I'm just trying to properly understand what is going to come to pass while factoring in all these things and endeavoring to be true to Scripture.  On the other hand, what I hear you saying (combination of prior and here) is that there is no difference between the Christian Church and the Israelite Nation, yet the Christian Church needs to be prepared to endure all this tribulation while the Israelite Nation gets a cake walk.  If you are going to be consistent with what you are saying, then why don't the Christian Church get a cake walk?  For clarity sake, I believe the Church will be gathered prior to this time...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:13 PM, not an echo said:

If you will notice, what you have in bold puts what Jesus says in verses 12-19 before the "sights" and "signs" of verse 11---with the part that I have been referring to as the first section.  I see the sights and signs of which Jesus speaks in verse 11 as linking this section to the event he gives his account of in verses 25-27.  Very important to notice.  Now, notice how what Jesus said in verses 25-27 harmonizes with Matthew 24:29-31 and is like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal.  All of this revolves around the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  the intersecting event between the era of the Church (of which we are a part) and the Day of the Lord (which includes Daniel's 70th Week).

 

Ok great, although there still seems to be some difference perhaps.  In relation to the great signs and terrors from heaven, don't you think that includes more than just the events you mention?  For example, how about the two witnesses and the false prophet who can bring fire down from heaven, or stopping rain from falling?  How about the angels flying overhead giving warnings?  How about wormwood?

It is about more than just a sign.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Note how signs is plural, not singular, and don't forget the terrors.

Here we were in a discussion about Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, found in Luke 21.  Concerning your question, "don't you think that includes more than just the events you mention?",  let's look at the events from the passages I mention.  First, from Luke's account, chapter 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Then from Matthew's account in chapter 24:

 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then from John's account of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:

 12  And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;  and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;  and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

That's a lot of heavy duty stuff that happens concurrent with the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  Man has never seen anything like it.  Ever.  And this will just be the start.

You mentioned Wormwood.  I certainly think that is a worthy mention, as, in the absence of any prohibiting times frames, I see the first four trumpets being sounded on the same day that the 7th Seal is opened, which in turn is opened the same day that the 6th Seal is opened.  Let me say it this way:  Because there are no time frames given that would prevent such a view, I can see everything from Revelation 6:12-8:13 happening in the course of one day.  It just all fits.

Consider:  You know that I see the rapture as occurring with the opening of the 6th Seal, pre-Daniel's 70th Week, which I don't see evidence of until Revelation 11.  As the N.T. Church was not a factor or part in the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks, it is reasonable (even without other supporting evidences) that it will not be a part of the 70th, or last week.  Moreover as what is in our hemisphere was not a factor or part in the first 69 weeks, it is equally as reasonable that it will not be a part of the 70th, or last week.  All of this shapes up to support that what will happen on the day of the rapture will contribute to a major stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, so that the focus will be brought to bear upon the lands of the Bible days and the Israelite nation---once again---as during the first 69 weeks.  What happens during the period of trumpets #5 and #6 will further contribute to this stage reset, especially relative to the far, FAR EAST (consider afresh Rev. 9:14-21), so that midway into the 6th Trumpet period, the timeliness of the little book of Daniel being now seen open (Rev. 10) is all the more in the category of WOW!!!  Then it will be time to pull back the curtains.  All the world's scholarship has so absolutely missed it that I would think it would be embarrassing.  Hmmm.  That may explain some things.

Concerning your statement, "It is about more than just a sign",  I fully agree.

Concerning you statement, "Note how signs is plural, not singular, and don't forget the terrors."  Absolutely.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:17 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 9:02 PM, not an echo said:

Relating (for now) to Jesus' parable of the fig tree, I think something is missed when what Luke says is not considered.  He says that Jesus said, "and all the trees" (Lk. 21:29).  Whatever the specific characteristics of the fig tree, we need to find the common denominator that is here being alluded to.

 

The common denominator in all three accounts is the parable of the fig tree, and the specifics that are referred to are in relation to the fig tree and the fruit it produces as well as the season.

I kinda agree and disagree.  I'm trying to be diplomatic! 

What you are saying is kinda true, but there is more.  If each account only spoke of one fraction, like 1/3, then a fraction would be common to all the accounts, and the common denominator would be 3.  We could say that the fraction 1/3 equals the fig tree.  But, if Luke's account has two fractions, like 1/3 (which equals the fig tree) and 1/6 (which we will say equals "all the trees"), the common denominator becomes 6 and is no longer 3.  The number 6 would be something that would work for both, which is what we must look for, in light of Luke's account.  In consideration then of what the common denominator is that we are looking for between "the fig tree, and all the trees" (Lk. 21:29), Jesus gives us this clue:  "When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand" (vs. 30).  By this clue, we can know that the common denominator that we are looking for has nothing to do with the fruit or harvest time, but everything to do with summer coming on.  Further, this can be seen to be quite consistent with Matthew and Mark's accounts, for we know that the common denominator of all trees is that when the "branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Matt. 24:32/Mk. 13:28), "summer is nigh" (Matt. 24:32) or "summer is near" (Mk. 13:28).  By comparing each account, which is what we must do, we can put the more correct answer in the blank concerning what Jesus is trying to teach us with His parable.

On 8/10/2020 at 11:17 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

I almost see your strait-jacketing of the meaning of the word "sign" as being a sign to me  of your resistance to really consider what I am saying.  I think a better example of a sign (and more related to our discussion) might be what we find in Isaiah 7:

 14  Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign;  Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Interestingly, here we have a sign preceding Christ's First Advent.  I don't know why it should seem to be an odd thing that the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" would precede Christ's Second Advent.

 

Still not seeing this the same, as you can see from Isaiah's prophecy the sign was in regards to the Messiah, and it involved Him actually being born.  The sign was recognized after His birth to others, Mary knew ahead of time because she was told, as was Joseph.

I know that you know this, but I felt it would be worth saying, it involved a little more than "Him actually being born."  It involved a virgin conceiving, bearing a son, and His name being called Emmanuel.

On 8/10/2020 at 11:17 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/9/2020 at 11:34 PM, not an echo said:

When my wife was great with our first and only child (28 years ago), she was standing in the kitchen and all of a sudden water started streaming down her legs into the floor!  Now, that right there was "an event in and of itself" let me tell you!  And a sure sign that we better be getting ourselves to the hospital.  The son was born shortly.

 

Well I'm glad you all got to the hospital in time, but again the water breaking is a sign that the child is coming.  You didn't celebrate it, but I wager you celebrated the birth of your son.     Signs as I stated previously point us to something.

I'm a little more alright with how you're saying it here.  Of course, signs point us to something, and the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) will point to, or be a precursor for, Christ's Second Advent, which will come in the same generation (easily) as the sign.

Typically, a lightning strike can be seen as an event in and of itself and a sign that you are gonna hear thunder.  And, thunder is a sign in and of itself that my wife is gonna be scared (just ask her).  And, my wife being scared is a sign in and of itself that I need to come to her comfort and rescue (take my word for it).  Buuut, my coming to her comfort and rescue is not a sign in and of itself that I am Superman...except, of course, in her eyes!  Just trying to have a little fun...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo